Mimi Kwa (00:03):
People say life is a journey, not a destination, but how do you know you’re on the right path?
Jo Stanley (00:10):
If only we could see the signs when they appear.
Mimi Kwa (00:13):
Well, I’m Mimi Kwa.
Jo Stanley (00:14):
And I’m Jo Stanley.
Mimi Kwa (00:15):
And on A to Be, we speak to fascinating people about how they navigated their way to be here now having profound impact on the world.
Jo Stanley (00:26):
We hope our conversations will help you reflect on everything you’ve been through to get here, the triumphs, challenges and bumps along the road.
Mimi Kwa (00:35):
And if you haven’t already, find your own map to what matters.
Jane Badler (00:41):
I guess I want people to know that I brought depth and meaning and glamour and beauty and fun into people’s lives.
Jo Stanley (00:55):
Our guest today, actor and singer Jane Badler was at first best known for the most iconic moment on ’80s television. But we’re going to come to that.
Mimi Kwa (01:06):
Oh my gosh, that scene is etched in my memory.
Jo Stanley (01:09):
I know.
Mimi Kwa (01:10):
Jane has had a string of huge international TV roles from V, that gives you a little clue to Mission Impossible, to even Neighbours.
Jo Stanley (01:19):
She’s an incredible performer and well-known philanthropist, but in 2020, one of her children, Harry Hains, tragically died of an overdose, which of course changed Jane’s world forever.
Mimi Kwa (01:32):
And we do delve into some pretty difficult topics around mental health there. So please look after your own mental health and see our show notes for links if you need support.
Jo Stanley (01:41):
Jane is just a ray of light, but before we dive deep into her story, we do have to start with that iconic TV scene.
(01:51):
Jane, thank you so much for joining us on A to Be.
Jane Badler (01:54):
Oh, it’s so fun to be here with you two.
Jo Stanley (01:57):
Externally, and to those around you, whether it’s in the public eye or in your vast networks, I guess you’re many things. You’re a philanthropist, actor, singer, wife, mother, so many things. How would you like to describe yourself?
Jane Badler (02:14):
I think at this time in my life, philanthropist, maybe activist, a person who can make change and inspire others.
Jo Stanley (02:25):
Wow. I think you’ve nailed your purpose right there.
Jane Badler (02:27):
Yeah.
Jo Stanley (02:28):
Is that something you’ve deliberately articulated for yourself or it’s just come to you?
Jane Badler (02:32):
I think it’s just come to me actually. Thank you.
Mimi Kwa (02:33):
Just now.
Jane Badler (02:34):
Yeah.
Jo Stanley (02:39):
Particularly when you say activist, what are your goals?
Jane Badler (02:42):
I never thought of myself as political, and I think it’s started with Trump and for the first time I felt very passionately about a man who shouldn’t be in the White House, and that kind of started me tweeting and not really caring. My tweet’s kind of a place where I can be very political and not care. In Instagram, I tend to be a bit more careful. But I think that, and then I think it just kept growing with American politics, abortion rights, and those things started happening in America, mostly America. Then of course The Voice here and now with the Gaza war. So it’s just been kind of a continuous thing. And mainly I’m interested in humanity, and I think right now we’re lacking. There’s a lot of divisiveness and hate.
Jo Stanley (03:33):
It’s so true.
Jane Badler (03:34):
So I’m just really kind of concerned about what’s happening.
Mimi Kwa (03:38):
How has this activist nature that you’ve found in yourself, how has that snuck up on you? Was it something that was always within you, but you got on with your career, you got on with your family, and now is the time, is it something that comes with wisdom and age and experience, or is it something else?
Jane Badler (03:57):
That’s a very good question. I think I had so many other things taking out my brain. I came from a lot of trauma growing up, and then that sort of caused me to concentrate more on just getting through anxiety every day. Then I had my career in America, which was very full on, my acting career. Then I married my husband. We had two babies very quickly, one of them had a lot of issues. So that took up all of my brain power, and now I’m sort of free. Now I’m at a point where I’m not looking after children and I can really concentrate on what’s important to me.
Jo Stanley (04:35):
This is why I think women over 40 and over 50 and over 60 are so powerful and so important, and I think perhaps why also, we’re so threatening at times, don’t you think?
Jane Badler (04:48):
Yes. I think we’re afraid of being threatening. I do.
Jo Stanley (04:54):
You think we make ourselves small for that reason-
Mimi Kwa (04:54):
Because we’ve been people pleasers for so long.
Jane Badler (04:58):
I think a little bit and I have. Boy, have I. I mean, I’m just starting now to say what I think and go, okay, well, they might not like me, but I’m going to say what I think. And that’s really new for me because I come from a generation. My mother would say, “Oh, you’re going to meet a man, a prince. He’s going to make you happy. You’re going to have a beautiful life with a man.” I’m born in the ’50s, so I didn’t realize, wow, wait, I can actually be happy without a man. That did not occur to me. So yeah, it’s been a real growing experience.
Jo Stanley (05:27):
So tell us about your family then, growing up, and what was instilled in you that you now have kept with you or that perhaps you have gone, “Uh-uh, that’s not for me.”
Jane Badler (05:36):
Well, my parents married very young. They were 18 and they had their first child, I think at 18 or 19, which of course nowadays seems unbelievable. They had four children.
Mimi Kwa (05:45):
Where did you sit in the four?
Jane Badler (05:47):
I was the second oldest and my oldest sister had a lot of issues sadly. She was diagnosed schizophrenic, so she was like, in those days, it’s just unbelievable, she was sent away when she was young, a teenager, to some institution. And she was four years older than I. So I didn’t really get to know her that well. And my mother was a very colorful, very beautiful, very brilliant woman who married and subjugated her own kind of incredible ambitions to my father. He was very charismatic and she left school because she was pregnant, and then she had a eating disorder. So she was huge. I’m not talking normal. I grew up with an enormous mother, and so I was embarrassed by my mother, but she was my biggest fan. I was in the Miss America pageant and she made all my costumes and she was just so, she just thought I was the most incredible human being on the planet, and yet there I was as a teenager going, “Mom…”My parents divorced when I was 13. My dad married a very young, beautiful woman and moved to Scottsdale, Arizona where he was head of the law department. Then we had a terrible tragedy in our life where my father and brother were killed in a plane crash. I feel like I’m actually telling you a screenplay. I was 18, I just finished the Miss America pageant. I was a freshman at Northwestern University, and that sort of completely changed my life. I think it was just all about, I was such a warrior, oh, I’m going to be okay. I’m not going to cry. I’m going to be okay. Can you imagine? I’m not going to cry. And so I just thought, I’m just going to be the best. I’m going to be super successful. I’m going to be super famous and that’s going to get me through. And that was kind of what I did for a while. Went to New York and got on soap operas and commercials and all this stuff. Some of your guests have said, if you do not deal with the trauma, then eventually it’s going to really affect your mental health.
Jo Stanley (07:56):
And how did that, when did that happen?
(08:00):
Was there a moment?
Jane Badler (08:00):
Well, I kind of was a big part… I was doing everything. I was wild and men and this and that and partying. And then I’d get up at five and do the soap opera all day. I was just a crazy person. And then went into therapy, but I was always having anxiety attacks, like terrible anxiety attacks. And I don’t think I dealt with it at all, really. I sort of didn’t deal with it. And then I got Mission Impossible. Met my husband who I thought, now he’s going to save me. It was always like someone was going to save me. So I moved here, just walked away from this incredible career and had two babies very quickly, and that’s a whole other thing. But wow.
Mimi Kwa (08:43):
Before we revisit some of the myriad of things that you’ve just shared with us, can we talk about your incredible career? Because I was just such a huge fan, like probably everybody else.
Jane Badler (08:58):
Thank you.
Mimi Kwa (09:00):
And particularly of your role in V.
Jane Badler (09:00):
Yes.
Jo Stanley (09:00):
To be honest, that moment where you eat the rat, it is still so clear in my memory. I don’t know why as a teenager, that particular scene really stuck with me.
Jane Badler (09:12):
But you know what I think? I think it was, he cast me as this kind of incredibly young, beautiful woman. Nobody knew what I was. And then it was kind of very sexual too. There I was this gorgeous young woman and suddenly out of nowhere I pick up, it was a big fat guinea pig, and eat it. Of course, everyone’s going to be going, “Oh my god.” And what about the special effects?
Mimi Kwa (09:36):
It’s just an iconic moment, isn’t it?
Jane Badler (09:37):
No, it’s iconic. And we just had a big thing in Vanity Fair. They just did a big article on it. So it’s just incredible, the staying power that it’s had, V. I can’t even believe it, that I’ve been part of something like that. Never again. It was that one moment. I’ve done a lot of things since then, but never V.
Jo Stanley (09:57):
Does it annoy you that people maybe know you for that, but not the other amazing work that you’ve done?
Jane Badler (10:02):
I’m okay with it, really. I’m so grateful. God, it’s given me the most amazing opportunities.
Jo Stanley (10:07):
But you’ve got a movie out at the moment, haven’t you?
Jane Badler (10:10):
Yes. I have a movie that is hopefully about to come out called Trim Season that I produced and I star in, and we shot it in Utah. It really cured me of not really needing to act anymore.
Jo Stanley (10:24):
It’s a curse then.
Jane Badler (10:25):
Yeah, it’s kind of like it was my thing that I needed to do.
Mimi Kwa (10:29):
You needed to get it out of your system.
Jane Badler (10:30):
I needed to do this role. It was a dark, dark role, very dark role, and I did it, and I’m so proud of myself, and now I feel like it’s on to producing and-
Jo Stanley (10:42):
Oh, you’re done with acting now?
Jane Badler (10:43):
I’m not to say that I will never act, but I’m not chasing that at all anymore. That is not my passion.
Jo Stanley (10:49):
What was it in you that chased it then?
Mimi Kwa (10:51):
Yeah. What drew you to a dark role and to produce and act in a dark role when you seem, to me, so full of light?
Jane Badler (10:59):
I think I have a lot of demons, and I think it was a way of working through.
PART 1 OF 4 ENDS [00:11:04]
Mimi Kwa (11:05):
An exorcism.
Jane Badler (11:06):
Yeah, because it’s a horror film, and I play the worst possible kind of person. Do you know what I’m saying? I play a witch with superpowers. And I do unspeakable things.
Mimi Kwa (11:17):
Well, I liked the witch with superpowers bit, I think that’s promising.
Jane Badler (11:20):
Yeah, that part’s great, but then I do horrible things in order to feed my addiction. I’m addicted to this particular weed that keeps me young. And so I do things-
Mimi Kwa (11:33):
Oh, I’m getting tinges of Rapunzel.
Jane Badler (11:35):
Yes. It’s a very interesting film. So I went through that process and when it was over, it was really exhausting. And I watch it now and I go, “Okay, that was great,” but I feel like 40 years I’ve been acting, do you know? That’s a long time.
Jo (11:52):
But it’s interesting to me, I always feel like people who are drawn to performance… And I don’t really include myself in that, although I’ve been a performer for 25 years. But people who are drawn to the need to be an actor and can’t ever give it up because it’s in them. I wonder what it is that is that almost a curse? Because it is not an easy life. You’re always out of work. You’re struggling, you’re hustling the whole time. And there’s, I guess, a cliche that maybe you’re seeking validation or escape or whatever it is. But what was it for you?
Jane Badler (12:22):
This is a really interesting thing to admit. I’m probably admitting this for the very first time. But I think the reason I acted may not have been for the right reasons. I think I acted at the beginning for attention, for accolades, for fame. And then I always studied my craft. I was a theater major at Northwestern. I studied with Stella Adler, with some of the greatest acting teachers. But, ultimately, I always found acting so difficult for me. Some people just do it so easily, and maybe they don’t. But it’s a lot of work. It’s a lot of work. And I’m now at a point where I want my attention to go somewhere else. And that’s really what it is.
Mimi Kwa (13:07):
And when you say that you are doing it for what you now regard as the wrong reasons, and those reasons sound like they weren’t ego led, but you were also trying to escape the great grief of losing your father and your brother.
Jane Badler (13:22):
Yes. Totally.
Mimi Kwa (13:22):
So with maturity now, do you have an element of real insight and forgiveness for that younger version of yourself?
Jane Badler (13:31):
Yes, totally. I think we all have to do that. Look at that younger version, see the crazy things we’ve done. And we are the ones that have to say to our younger self, “God, I love you.” We keep looking for our partners or for someone else to say it. But I think it’s really up to us to say it.
Jo (13:49):
Yeah. I think grief makes you do weird things.
Jane Badler (13:53):
It sure does, yeah.
Jo (13:55):
So we have a very strange connection in that my father died in plane crash.
Jane Badler (14:00):
Oh, my God. I just got chills. Sorry.
Jo (14:02):
Do you believe that?
Jane Badler (14:02):
I literally got chills.
Jo (14:04):
It’s not often you meet other people who’ve had that experience.
Jane Badler (14:07):
I’m emotional. That’s amazing. How old were you?
Jo (14:09):
I was four. So quite a different experience.
Jane Badler (14:12):
Like a commercial plane or-
Jo (14:14):
He was a pilot.
Jane Badler (14:14):
Same with my dad, he was a pilot. That is fascinating.
Jo (14:18):
A very different experience, because you were an adult and I was a child, so I guess-
Jane Badler (14:22):
Well, it’s still trauma, yeah.
Jo (14:24):
Yeah, and a plane crash is a particular kind of-
Jane Badler (14:26):
Yes.
Jo (14:27):
I don’t know. I don’t love flying.
Jane Badler (14:30):
Me neither.
Jo (14:31):
But I think also it’s the way the world… And I guess car accidents are the same, that you can have a person there one moment, and then suddenly not. And so you’re taught, for the rest of your life, that that can happen to anyone.
Jane Badler (14:48):
Totally. You have a very different relationship to death. I feel like I do too. I’m very aware.
Jane Badler (14:53):
It’s with me every minute.
Jane Badler (14:54):
Yeah, me too. I’m very aware that I’m living, but that I could not be living. Now, that sounds very macabre, but that’s the truth.
Mimi Kwa (15:00):
No, but does that make you more grateful or more fearful? I mean grateful that you are-
Jane Badler (15:05):
I think I’m very grateful, and I really enjoy my coffee and I really enjoy the flowers I see in the park. There’s that two sides to it, isn’t there? There’s the pain of it, and then there’s the scintillating beauty you see in life.
Mimi Kwa (15:23):
What about you, Jo? Does it make you more grateful or fearful? You say you don’t love flying.
Jo (15:28):
I’m an intensely risk averse person, and it’s a running gag in our family, in that I don’t like heights. I don’t do rides. I don’t go in the water. I don’t go underground.
Jane Badler (15:39):
I’m exactly the same.
Jo (15:39):
I don’t like speed. And my family goes, “You just don’t like fun.” And I’m like, “Well, no, you’re right.”
Jane Badler (15:47):
I’m exactly, exactly the same. My husband’s driving two kilometers over the speed limit, “Honey, slow down, slow down.” He goes, “What’s with you?” I’m like this. No, I am exactly the same.
Jo (15:58):
I don’t understand people who like adrenaline for fun. I’m like, “That is not fun. That makes me want to be…” Like I want to just crawl into a dark hole and never come out.
Jane Badler (16:05):
And yet, we’re performers.
Jo (16:07):
Well, that’s right.
Jane Badler (16:08):
Because that’s safe. It’s emotional. It’s not like my physical being will be hurt. Isn’t that funny?
Jo (16:13):
Wow, how amazing. And then, we are talking about grief, so we have to speak about your beautiful boy, Harry. Is it okay for you to speak about him?
Jane Badler (16:21):
Yeah, yeah, just if I get emotional, don’t… It’s been four years. Well, almost four years.
Mimi Kwa (16:28):
Only four years? Of course you’re going to get emotional, even if it was 40 years.
Jane Badler (16:31):
I know. And I remember I did a grief group a year after he died. And there were people in the grief group, mothers, it was a parent one, and it had been 20 years. And they were talking about their intense pain. I felt like going, “Well, excuse me, what are you talking about? It’s been a year for me and I want to get inspired by you. I want you to make me feel okay.” And, now, it’s been four years and there’s just no change. It’s like it happened yesterday. Time is not the same when you lose a child, just not the same.
Jo Stanley (16:59):
It is the greatest pain to lose a child.
Jane Badler (17:01):
I know. God, he was something.
Jo Stanley (17:05):
Tell us about Harry?
Jane Badler (17:07):
Harry was just not… People call him an earth angel because he was just not meant to be here long. He just came here to teach. He was, from a young age, so unique. He was always one foot in this world, one foot somewhere else. He was completely into magic. He had books of potent spells that he could fly, that he could be a super person. He had made up lands, Harry Land. And he was just this magical person. But he also had a very profound sleeping disorder. And so, at a very young age, he went onto the web and he got sleeping pills. We didn’t know about that, but he was a very difficult child. Oh my God, I wish I could remember a lot of time of happiness with him, but he really kept me on my toes. But he was really special. He was beautiful to look at. He was with Ford. He was incredibly talented. He could play piano and recite Latin, and he was just incredible.
(18:12):
And he just got… One thing led to another. And his friends all said that they were afraid for him because he was such a risk-taker. He really didn’t care. He actually did not care what people thought. He dressed in women’s clothes at a young age. That’s like no one was doing that. Yeah, and then he went off to LA at 21, and he had a lot of success. But then he went back and forth, he was in and out of rehabs. Oh my God, rehabs, and the last seven years of his life were just basically me trying to save him. That was where all my energy went, trying to save him. I could write… Well, I am trying to write a book about this, which is not easy, yeah.
Mimi Kwa (18:55):
Do you feel that… Sometimes in life I’ve heard that… And I don’t mean to say this flippantly because you’ve lost your son. But that some lessons in life keep coming back until we learn them. Was there something that you learned throughout that time with your son, trying to save him and support him, that impacted you profoundly?
Jane Badler (19:18):
Well, it’s really interesting because I went to a lot of Al-Anon meetings. And the whole thing about Al-Anon is when you have an addict that you love, you are taught to let go because you’re never going to save them. Basically, the only person that’s going to save them is their self. But I think this is just absolutely impossible as a mother.
Jo Stanley (19:36):
Oh, you can’t.
Jane Badler (19:37):
You just can’t. I tried.
Jo Stanley (19:38):
Because that’s like giving up on them.
Jane Badler (19:39):
It’s like giving up. I never could just let him go. Never, never, never. And I think the lessons that I’ve learned, I would not have done anything differently. Even though, during that period, my health drastically went down. It was not good for my marriage. My other son was probably not paid attention to a lot. But the truth is, I would not give up for a second that I spent all my energy trying to save him. That’s just what I did.
Jo (20:07):
Well, you would not want to be sitting here thinking, “There was something I didn’t do.”
Jane Badler (20:10):
Yep. And somehow I survived. I’m sitting here surviving, and in a beautiful place in my marriage now, and having so much joy in my life, alongside a lot of grief. But I just feel grateful that I am a survivor.
Jo (20:26):
There’s a reason you are. There’s a part of your story that is valuable for others.
Jane Badler (20:32):
Totally, which is why I’m trying to write this bloody book.
Jo (20:35):
Well, yeah, a mother’s grief is something really specific, but very common.
Jane Badler (20:41):
It is very common. Too common. But I think I just feel like, in life, if we’re lucky, we have choices. Some people don’t have choices, but we do have choices. And that is to decide how you are going to spend each day. And I guess you can give in, and I’m used to being a warrior, aren’t I, because I’ve always had to be. And sometimes you do give in to the grief. But, ultimately, you have to decide you’re going to live your life for the people that love you, for my other son, for my husband, for myself. And I feel like this part of my life, I’m doing more interesting things than I’ve ever done too.
Mimi Kwa (21:30):
How do you approach your own healing from not only many years ago, losing your father, brother, difficult relationship with your mother, but obviously losing a son is the biggest thing and most recent thing of all. We did see on your Instagram that you went on a retreat recently. Can you tell us about that?
Jane Badler (21:53):
Oh my God, with Deepak Chopra, which is the last one that he’s going to do. He is amazing. He’s just so amazing. I-
PART 2 OF 4 ENDS [00:22:04]
Jane Badler (22:04):
I think it’s really hard for me to give up my attachments. I try. My attachments to my phone, my attachment to my husband, my attachment to my… I love looking online to shop, that’s my addiction. So I think for me to go somewhere and then have to give that up, what would…
Jo Stanley (22:26):
So it was a silent retreat for how long?
Jane Badler (22:28):
Six days.
Jo Stanley (22:28):
Wow.
Jane Badler (22:29):
And none of those things that I normally get are not there.
Jo Stanley (22:36):
Well, the crutches, like things you turn to when you’re like-
Jane Badler (22:36):
Yeah, the crutches.
Jo Stanley (22:39):
… oh, I’m… You can either sit idle with your thoughts or you can pick up a phone. We pick up a phone.
Jane Badler (22:44):
Or I can look on the shopping channel, or I can do this or that.
Mimi Kwa (22:47):
Well, I did a silent retreat for six days myself, but I loved it, but everybody struggled with that. And not saying that I was in any way superior or inferior about letting go, but I just think it was the right time for me. So what did you learn about yourself? I think I was already ready to go inward, because I’d been doing that a lot. I’d written my book already. So in that writing that you’re doing, that’s obviously part of your catharsis and your healing experience. So, tell us a little bit more about what it was like to just have to go inward and be silent with yourself.
Jane Badler (23:21):
For me, this one was not as bad as the first one I did, which was a little more… This one was a little more luxurious. We had a beautiful hotel room and we only had to meditate maybe a couple of hours a day, whereas the last one I did, it was basically six or seven hours a day you’re sitting down, meditating. I think still I realized that I go pretty dark. I go, “Uh.” I’ve just got to explore the depths of my despair, which maybe is something, part of me, I don’t know, I don’t think I enjoy it, it just happens. And then I go down this rabbit hole of obsessive thinking. And I thought, “Oh my God, am I going crazy?” I actually even had to call my… I broke the silence one night, because I texted my therapist and I said, “I need you to talk to you.” And so we had one therapy session. She said, “No, that’s okay to do this.” But then the strange thing is when I left, I was so peaceful. That was the thing. Really, really peaceful.
Jo Stanley (24:22):
Well, you’re moving it through your body, I suppose.
Jane Badler (24:25):
Yeah.
Jo Stanley (24:26):
Did it feel like you had released…
Jane Badler (24:28):
Yes, it did. It really did.
Mimi Kwa (24:31):
And I’m just, from a personal point of view, I’m just so curious, what did Deepak bring-
Jane Badler (24:35):
I know.
Jo Stanley (24:35):
Because I love him.
Mimi Kwa (24:36):
We want to know. Was he giving Dharma talks every night?
Jane Badler (24:39):
Yes.
Mimi Kwa (24:39):
Is that how he contributed?
Jane Badler (24:40):
He was giving two talks a day.
Jo Stanley (24:41):
Can you explain for people who don’t know even who Deepak Chopra is?
Jane Badler (24:45):
He’s like a scientific, spiritual guru. He comes from a very strong science background, but he’s also deeply spiritual. And putting those two together is what makes him different, I think. He’s the real deal. It’s very easy to be a little bit cynical. He’s written a lot of books. I don’t know how many books, probably 30, more. And he’s commercialized his brand. And so I went into it with a little skepticism, thinking, “It might be not my thing,” but he is the real thing. And most of his commercialization comes from so much wanting to change the world for the better.
Jo Stanley (25:25):
How would you describe your spirituality?
Jane Badler (25:28):
I think for me, there is a strong awareness that there is much more than what we see with our five senses. And maybe I need to know that in order to think that these things happen to us, these horrible things happen to us, but that this is just one perception and that there’s much, much more than what we can perceive. And so I think that’s the basis of my spirituality.
Mimi Kwa (25:58):
Have you had spiritual experiences that back up that feeling about our perception?
Jane Badler (26:04):
Yeah. Well, I have seen quite a few mediums and I can say that one in particular, I still find it very difficult to understand how she was able to say the things she said to me, because she didn’t know who I was. We conversed on WhatsApp and she just had my first name. And I’d forgotten about her, because you have to do it months in advance. And then the day of our reading, I noticed someone on WhatsApp kept calling me, and finally I picked up, I go, “Who is this?” She goes, “Oh my God, Jane, I have to talk to you, because I’m the medium, but there’s a young man that is trying to get to you.” And I went, “What?” She didn’t know anything about me and she just knew so much.
Mimi Kwa (26:49):
Just stuff that nobody else could know?
Jane Badler (26:51):
No one could know, no one. And at the time I was doing a legacy project for him. I had to do it, a year where I spent putting his music out there. He is a very talented musician. His brother did the animation for the videos. Oh my God, have I told you what we did? We were crazy with grief. We hired this team in America who was charging us so much money, because Harry called himself Antiboy, which was his way of saying, “Screw gender, we’re above that. I’m the Antiboy.”
Mimi Kwa (27:24):
And he’s got an incredible Instagram page.
Jane Badler (27:27):
I know. Incredible. So, that was what we decided we were going to get out there, this messaging that you should accept yourself, and Antiboy, and we put out his music. And then we had… People want to do the boy band, the Antiboy boy band. And we had these meetings with these people, big people, “Oh, it’ll only cost $100 million and we can get the boy band. We can get the boy band.” Finally, I said, I looked at him, I go, “Wow, this is madness. This is madness.” It was almost like my husband would watch me pouring myself into this project, which I think I just had to do at the time, but then we realized this is just not going to bring him back. So, at that point, we just said thank you, and we stepped away. And that was the end of the Antiboy legacy project.
Jo Stanley (28:20):
Did you feel a bit like it was an out of body experience at the time? Like you were just not in control?
Jane Badler (28:24):
Yes. It was out of body. And I thought, “Oh, I’m pretty good at this grieving thing.” My son was gone, and yet I was so coping. I look back, I go, “You were mad as a hatter.” Oh my God, you just did what you always do. You go, “I’m going to make this Antiboy thing the world. And I’m going…
Jo Stanley (28:45):
Isn’t that so true that what we do to avoid sitting with the grief is action, got to do, do, do, do instead of being-
Mimi Kwa (28:54):
Keeping busy. Keeping busy. So now, that pouring in of what you felt at the time was purpose, you are much more mindful of that now. You’ve got a little bit of time and a little bit of distance from that, but you do pour yourself into a lot of causes, don’t you? Can you tell us about those?
Jane Badler (29:13):
Well, I’m a patron of Lighthouse, which you both know of, which is homeless youth. So, I’m pretty involved with that. And we also are very supportive of the Gender House with the Asylum Seekers Resource Center, which I’m also a big supporter of. And yeah, I’ve started to get involved with documentaries with social impact, which is really important to me as well. And now I’m starting to produce, I’m a creative producer on a… I’m just about to sign a contract on a new project, very young filmmakers. And that’s super exciting for me to be part of the process: the writing, the editing, the casting. So that’s this new phase that I want to move into now, which is helping get projects going.
Mimi Kwa (30:01):
And how does that feel to just be able to be of service in a profound way to so many people in different areas, with just you, what you have? Obviously you put money into it, but you’re putting your love, life and soul into things.
Jane Badler (30:19):
It feels so good. I feel so good to be free, more free that I’m not spending all my time talking to case managers and sober companions and then free to not be chasing acting. That took up a lot of time and energy and you had to keep your muscles and you have to do acting classes and then you’d get a job and then you were consumed with that. That’s like a whole thing that I’ve just said, “That goes there,” and now I’ve got all this energy to actually make a difference.
Jo Stanley (30:47):
What do you want your legacy to be?
Jane Badler (30:49):
That’s such an interesting question. I don’t know. I guess I want people to know that I brought depth, and meaning, and glamour, and beauty, and fun into people’s lives.
Jo Stanley (31:05):
Although what you’re working on, all those incredible organizations that you’re supporting, they’re not about that, are they? They’re about freedom and-
Jane Badler (31:13):
Yes, they are.
Jo Stanley (31:14):
… helping others to live their beauty, I suppose. You’re bringing liberation to those people.
Jane Badler (31:21):
Yes.
Mimi Kwa (31:22):
And glamour.
Jane Badler (31:22):
Yes, and glamour. But I think what’s happened in the world is, and I think it started with the whole woke movement, which was needed at the time, because a lot of the people that were coming from that were discriminated against and still are. But, like most things, I feel they go a little too far and then something else occurs after that. And I think it’s also affecting the way people are thinking with the Gaza war as well. So, it’s just such an interesting time and I really want people to feel measured and look at both sides to; yes, you can read things from the Palestinian sites, but also read live on ground, what’s happening in Israel. Listen to Sam Harris, who’s one of the very sane voices in all this. I just think it’s really important that people are not jumping to what they see on Instagram or Twitter. But yeah, I just hope my legacy is that I made a difference in people’s lives for the better.
Jo Stanley (32:29):
And for the individual who may have gone through that unimaginable grief that you have gone through, what can you tell that person who might be seeking advice when you were seeking inspiration in that grief group?
Jane Badler (32:46):
I read a lot of books on grief after it happened. I read a lot of books about parents who lost children to help me. Like, how did they survive? How did they get through it? And I think the biggest thing is to make friends with grief. Don’t say, “I’m pushing you away…” Say, yes, here you are. And that’s because I’m loved so deeply. I get so emotional thinking about that but that’s what grief is.
Jo (33:12):
I think we fear grief, don’t we, as a society. And you’re so right that it’s one of the most common, it is the most common experience on the planet.
Jane Badler (33:22):
It sure is.
Jo (33:23):
And it’s to be alive, is to grieve.
Mimi (33:25):
And we do try to push it away, and we do try to compartmentalize it.
Jane Badler (33:29):
Yeah, because we’re so embarrassed. And especially in Australia, I’m not saying, I mean I won’t say-
Mimi (33:32):
We’re so intertwined into shame.
Jane Badler (33:35):
Our English shame. Yeah. And the whole idea of showing emotion is like, people go, “Oh no, I can’t cry.” It’s very, very kind of ingrained in our society. So I think it needs to be talked about.
Jo Stanley (33:49):
Also, I felt this recently. It was a strange time. I live in Elsternwick. So the war had started in Gaza and Cal Wilson had died same day or same week. And I was in the supermarket and just such a large Jewish community in Elsternwick, and people were openly weeping in the supermarket. And I found myself openly weeping because Cal Wilson had died.
Mimi Kwa (34:20):
Oh my god.
Jo Stanley (34:21):
And it felt very incredibly raw and vulnerable, but also so right.
Jane Badler (34:26):
Oh my God.
Jo Stanley (34:27):
I thought if you’re not going to gather where you are with your community and weep, what else is there?
(34:32):
What an amazing, amazing thing to happen. We fear tears and we fear being raw and going, “I’m hurting so much that it’s spilling out of me right now.” And that is the most human thing you can do.
Jane Badler (34:45):
Totally. Absolutely.
Mimi (34:47):
There’s also an element of there’s only so much grief that one person can handle. So there’s this self-protectionism that takes place too. And you can understand sides, the necessity for vulnerability and that outpouring, but also, to be able to create some sort of shield around your heart. And so how do you get that balance?
Jane Badler (35:09):
That’s so true. And you sometimes think you’re going mad with grief because grief is so painful. “Am I going to go crazy here?” But then you kind of don’t. I mean, my car is the best. I’ve spent many a time in my car being very loud, very loud, banging and screaming and crying. And then I go, “Am I going mad? Am I actually mad?” And then it passes, but …
Mimi (35:32):
Because you’ve got to shift it through your body.
Jane Badler (35:34):
Well, you do. It doesn’t stay. Thank God. I think for me, what was very, very difficult was after Harry passed away and I would see people avoiding me. That was really quite incredible. Or people not being able to look at me. And even now I’ll say to someone, I’m really happy to talk about Harry. Let’s talk about Harry. Because the more I talk about Harry, then he’s alive. He’s here with us. He’s not forgotten. And I think because I’m comfortable with it, people have become more comfortable with me. They say, “Oh, you make it so easy. Thank you.” But it’s hard.
Mimi (36:10):
Isn’t it so interesting in society that the onus is put on you-
Jane Badler (36:13):
I know-
Mimi (36:13):
… on the person grieving?
Jane Badler (36:15):
Exactly. It’s on me.
Mimi (36:15):
To actually allow for the emotional experiences of others.
Jane Badler (36:19):
I know. And it is, I feel like it is on me in a way to kind of allow people to, it’s okay. You can grieve with me. It’s okay. I have to allow them to know that I’m not going to fall apart.
Jo (36:30):
It’s like an apology too. I’m so sorry that I’ve made you feel uncomfortable about the fact that I’m grieving.
Jane Badler (36:35):
I know. It’s so messed up.
Jo (36:38):
Yeah.
Jane Badler (36:39):
It is.
Jo (36:40):
But it is such a critical conversation, and I think that other cultures do it better. I’m sure. I don’t know, I’m not from another culture, but certainly in Australia we don’t do it-
Jane Badler (36:49):
They do it a lot better. And I don’t know if there’s any grief groups here. I mean, there was one that I did join that I wasn’t too happy with. And then I know online there’s David Kessler, who’s one of the most famous grief counselors in the world, and he has all of this help online, Tender Hearts, it’s called where parents, because he lost a son, where parents can get online with other like-minded people. And I think those kind of things are really helpful.
Jo (37:16):
So who are you now? How would you describe the impact of those, like a lifetime of extraordinary experiences?
Jane Badler (37:25):
I think it’s made me more aware of my mortality. It’s made me more passionate about wanting to help others and help make some social changes. And it’s made me, in a weird way, more in my body, more of a woman than I feel I’ve ever been. More of a feminist, more looking for women to be empowered, which I can see now that I’ve had a lifetime of Me Too moments that were very destructive. But at the time I just accepted it. And now at my age when I don’t have the Me Too moments, which thank you, I feel like it has to be spoken about.
Jo (38:11):
Do you mean men harassing you?
Jane Badler (38:13):
Yes. And people in powerful positions.
Mimi (38:16):
The misogyny of the industry that you mean?
Jane Badler (38:18):
Oh, like unbelievable.
Jo (38:19):
You’re of a generation where you weren’t given permission to say anything.
Jane Badler (38:23):
Exactly. You were not given permission. It was tolerated all the time. And I mean, I had endless things happen to me. I mean, I was never thank God assaulted. I always was very clever and managed to kind of say, “Oh, well, I’ve just got to go get something,” and somehow I managed to always weasel my way out of things. But …
Jo (38:41):
But like sliding door moments, any other sort of like it’s-
Jane Badler (38:44):
Oh yeah. Sliding door moments.
Jo (38:45):
By a minuscule hairspray.
Jane Badler (38:47):
Yep. And I was very kind of like, the head of my acting department when I went to Northwestern, which is a very famous acting school. I was with one of the, I shouldn’t even talk about this, but one of the great teachers. We had mime every morning. It was like, oh, feeding my soul. And then one day he called me into his office and he made it pretty clear that he’d like to have a relationship with me. I was like 18. And I remember telling him no in a sweet way. And the next day I was kicked out of the class and I had a lesser teacher. And that affected my whole four years at Northwestern. It was like the whole time I was feeling shamed and embarrassed, and how do I somehow make the most of this experience and-
Mimi (39:31):
But how proud of yourself must you be that you actually said no, because many other people in that situation would’ve frozen or would’ve acquiesced, but you said no.
Jo (39:40):
But throughout that four years, and this is what we do as women, is we blame ourselves and we create a scenario in which I’ve now, I have got the shame of that, even though the shame is his.
Jane Badler (39:52):
That’s right. But we feel the shame. I mean, we know that about victims. So yeah, I think it’s a good time for me because I know now who I am.
Mimi (40:04):
And you’ve got time to reflect now.
Jane Badler (40:06):
Yes.
Mimi (40:07):
More than you did when you were busy doing, doing, doing. And so what is it now to be?
Jane Badler (40:13):
Hey, and I’m going to be a grandparent. I think this is the first time I’ve said it on air.
Jo (40:18):
Oh, that’s wonderful.
Jane Badler (40:22):
I know. I’m so emotional. It’s a little boy. So I’m just like, can’t believe it. My son, Sam, yep, he’s just come back from New York with his wife. They’re very talented. They’re creatives. And yeah, he just got a job, actually one teaching at RMIT in the kind of design, AI design. But yeah, it’s just amazing.
Mimi (40:43):
Oh, wow.
Jane Badler (40:44):
So I’m going to be, that’s going to be …
Mimi (40:46):
That could be your Be, be a grandparent.
Jane Badler (40:48):
Give me the baby whenever you want. I’m taking that baby.
Jo (40:52):
So yeah, what does it mean for you to be?
Jane Badler (40:55):
I think just to accept, to accept my journey, accept who I am with all my complexities, accept my pain, and yeah, just accept that I’m a very lucky, lucky person living in this country and to have the privileges that I have. I guess that’s what the be is.
Mimi (41:15):
We feel so very lucky to have had you sit with us today.
Jane Badler (41:19):
You guys are amazing.
Jo (41:20):
Oh, you are.
Jane Badler (41:20):
You are. It’s just been a delight. Thank you.
Jo (41:25):
Thank you for listening. We love you joining us for our A to Be chats.
Mimi (41:29):
Yes, we do. Please see our show notes for our acknowledgement of country and all the people who help us put this podcast together, as well as interesting links to our guests work and other references we’ve mentioned.
Jo (41:41):
We’re Jo.
Mimi (41:42):
And Mimi from A to Be. Rate, follow and get in touch on our website.
Jo (41:47):
And let us know whose A to Be you’d like to find out about.
Mimi (41:50):
We can’t wait for you to hear our next conversation.
PART 4 OF 4 ENDS [00:42:05]
