Transcript: A to BE Episode 5

Mimi Kwa (00:03):
People say life is a journey, not a destination, but how do you know you are on the right path?
Jo Stanley (00:10):
If only we could see the signs when they appear.
Mimi Kwa (00:13):
Well, I’m Mimi Kwa.
Jo Stanley (00:14):
And I’m Jo Stanley.
Mimi Kwa (00:15):
And on A to Be, we speak to fascinating people about how they navigated their way to be here now, having profound impact on the world.
Jo Stanley (00:26):
We hope our conversations will help you reflect on everything you’ve been through to get here, the triumphs, challenges and bumps along the road.
Mimi Kwa (00:35):
And if you haven’t already, find your own map to what matters.
Alisha Tarrant (00:41):
… things like the platitudes, everything happens for a reason. He’s in a better place. He’s with God. But I wanted to go, “What are you talking about? That’s not true. That’s not how I feel. That’s not the truth.”
Jo Stanley (00:54):
Mimi, just the mention of Lifeline contains so many layers of meaning for different people. But for today’s guest, Alisha Tarrant, Lifeline is her life’s purpose.
Mimi Kwa (01:07):
Many, many of us have been to some pretty dark places in our time, and just the fact that the stigma of suicide has lifted to the point that we can even have this conversation is such a profoundly powerful thing. Although of course, we do issue a trigger warning.
Jo Stanley (01:24):
I don’t use this phrase lightly, but Alisha is an unsung hero, and this is such a beautiful and illuminating conversation.
Mimi Kwa (01:32):
Yeah, it really is. It’s very much about finding hope through the darkness.
Jo Stanley (01:38):
Alisha Tarrant, thank you so much for joining us today. We are really looking forward to our chat with you. Welcome.
Alisha Tarrant (01:46):
Thank you so much. It’s my absolute pleasure. I love connecting with people and hearing their life stories and yeah, if mine adds value, then grateful for that.
Mimi Kwa (01:56):
Amazing. Yes. Well, we’re about to hear yours, so we are very excited about that. You are part of a leadership team that runs Lifeline Narrm. Narrm, of course, referring to the indigenous name for Melbourne and surrounding areas, for those of us not in Melbourne who don’t know. Every year, a million people reach out to Lifeline itself. So how does Lifeline Narrm fit into this support service, And how did it come about? We want to hear a bit about what you’re doing first before we go back into your own history.
Alisha Tarrant (02:26):
Yeah, really happy to answer that question and our aim since Lifeline has existed is to be here for the community. And as the community has grown in beautiful ways and then the community needs have grown, Lifeline as a national network continues to see an increase in people connecting with particularly 13 11 14, phoning Lifeline, and also the online chat service, and there’s also a texting crisis support as well. And it’s building our community of incredible volunteers, incredible staff that ticket along to be there for people in crisis. And the honest truth is we don’t have enough resources.
(03:07):
So opening new centers such as Lifeline Narrm, to be able to bring that into the groundwork of the community in Melbourne, Lifeline Narrm, and then build on our resources to get more volunteers in. We want to answer more calls, we want to answer more calls that people phone Lifeline about whatever they call. The most heartbreaking thought is when people phone and reach out for help and those calls go unanswered. So we want to build the community, build the resources, answer more calls be there for Australians in their moment of need.
Jo Stanley (03:41):
Is it specific to Melbourne? Why Lifeline Narrm?
Alisha Tarrant (03:44):
Excellent question. So particularly with Melbourne’s incredible increased population, then Lifeline is a national network, saw the opportunity to open more centers. Geographically, there’s more opportunities, therefore for people to volunteer and do this incredible and rewarding… Hard for sure, but the most rewarding work I feel. And therefore from a geographical point of view, it gives more people opportunity. From research, the population base seems incredible and want to volunteer. So we want to try to open the doors for reduced barriers and blocks for people to be part of the community.
Mimi Kwa (04:25):
So our podcast, as you know, is A to Be. So we are fascinated in people’s journeys to get to a place of real impact in the community and in the world. And your journey, Alisha, to work with Lifeline and now Lifeline Narrm started out 12 or more years ago, and that was when something very pivotal in your life, devastating in fact happened and actually changed the trajectory of everything for you.
Alisha Tarrant (04:56):
Yeah, that’s right. So in 1995, the end of 1995, I was in year 12 and I had had ideally childhood, perfect childhood. I had no idea what mental health was. I had no idea really what suicide was. It were Narrm that were potentially mentioned. And then one morning the police arrived on our doorstep to say that my brother had gone missing and that he’d left a note. And I remember feeling confused, utterly, utterly confused because I had no idea what that meant. And I remember feeling like my brain was spinning incredibly fast in a moment, and I knew that everything had changed, but I had no idea what that meant. And then sadly, a few hours later, the police returned to our home to say that they had found my brother and that he had passed away. And then that journey of what suicide meant in our family, such a close connection.
(05:55):
And then particularly through a lot of the experiences we had, often with people with great hearts, good intentions that made that grief journey space harder. I wanted to be, for a really long time, I wanted to be part of helping other people, breaking down those barriers, opening the doors to conversations as uncomfortable and as difficult as they may feel. And therefore, I’d thought for a really long time about volunteering with Lifeline. I knew I needed to support myself more, get all of the resources. I had incredible counselors, psychologists. As family, we went to family counseling, part of bereavement groups, support groups with other people who had been impacted by suicide to moving into facilitating those spaces, both here and when I lived outside of where I’m born and bred. And from working through that, then I felt ready and able to, yes, start this process with being a volunteer crisis supporter with Lifeline and connecting with people.
(06:59):
My very, very first morning where we started training to become a volunteer, and we started with, at that point in time, we started with a two-day workshop that’s called ASIST, Applied Suicide Intervention Skills Training. Now I delivered that training to an amazing group of people from the public just the past two days. And I am so privileged to be able to have done that for 12 years now because that very first morning when I was starting my volunteer training by morning tea, my mindset had shifted. I had this information, this knowledge that essentially gave me a license permission to talk about suicide openly and honestly. And I knew what a difference that would have made in my life, and I wanted to be a part of even a tic-tac size difference to be that in other people’s lives.
Jo Stanley (07:50):
I am so interested when you say the grief that you and your family were going through and that terribly, terribly devastating loss of your brother, that people were doing things that didn’t help. As someone who… We all want to know how to help, and it would be terrible for those people to know that they were doing things that didn’t help. What does that even mean?
Alisha Tarrant (08:11):
Yeah, I love that question, Jo, because it shows the intent of evolution and how I think all of us could look back at various aspects in our life and think absolutely. If I had the knowledge and experience I would do, I would say things differently. Sometimes it was incredibly blatant, like I remember in the neighborhood where my parents are living, then we had people literally turn their backs on us. It felt like they were afraid to catch suicide. That by being connected with us and what it felt like was where the history of suicide, and particularly when we look at, thankfully the language around suicide has changed. Where the language around suicide used to be using the word commit a lot and coming from the history of it being against the law, and in some countries it horrendously still is, and the history of it being a sin.
(09:06):
And therefore what people who have been bereaved by suicide, working with this immense grief, all of the questions, all of the uncertainties in themselves, when people then literally sometimes turn to their back, the shame that you already felt on yourself for thinking, “What have I missed? What could have been an opportunity here? How could I not have known this?” The barrows that you’re already putting on yourself, and I was seeing my incredible parents and my other brother go through this experience. We’ve lost the same person. We all had our own experiences. So there was sometimes it was blatant, I just don’t know those people anymore, which was incredibly hurtful. Those people I could turn away from though, to be honest and think, “Well, that doesn’t serve me in the slightest.” What it hurt was, particularly when I would see my parents go through it.
(09:57):
And I would get defensive and protective sometimes and puff my chest out and potentially say inappropriate things as well, which yeah, may have offended people, but at that point in time I was okay with that because they’d hurt us when we were already hurting. And then there was other people with the best of intentions and I could feel their intentions and therefore I was a lot gentler most of the time. Sometimes I definitely had some snapping moments and I’m blessed to have people still in my life that put up with me when I snapped at them, when that wasn’t their intention. But some things like the platitudes, everything happens for a reason, particularly if religion came into this, he’s in a better place. He’s with God. Aspects like that, which came from yet really good intentions. But I wanted to go, “What aren’t you talking about? That’s not true.”
(10:50):
“That’s not how I feel. That’s not the truth.” Or then there was other people that would simply avoid it. I knew were talking about me quite often, particularly as I was at the end of year 12. So I pretty quickly became the girl whose brother killed himself and all of the questions and sometimes an incredibly public places. I remember turning up in my year 12 formal. First time I felt normal again and I’d got all dressed up and my hair was done and makeup was done. And I’m sure it was through genuine curiosity, but one person coming up to me and saying to my face, “Why did your brother commit suicide?” And it was like my legs went out from underneath me and I think we’ll ruin the makeup. And I just wanted to be that 17 year old human that wasn’t just the girl that’s lost her brother to suicide. I wanted to have that moment. I feel like that moment was taken away often through other people’s curiosity.
Mimi Kwa (11:42):
What did you need people to say in the moment? I mean, in 1995 there was such an incredible stigma around suicide in all the ways that you’re describing, but there’s a lot of that that still exists today, even almost 30 years later. So what is it that you needed in the moment that your family needed in the moment at the time, and what is it that people need now?
Alisha Tarrant (12:05):
Acceptance, and I think it’s the strongest thing we could honestly ever give any human being is not try to fix them, not try to solve it, not the platitudes. Often it’s actually saying nothing and it’s staying by someone’s side. As uncomfortable as that is for us, I am incredibly blessed that I’ve had people there… I call it ugly crying, that crying where you’ve just got to let everything out and what a release that is and to therefore, the people that I trusted that I often didn’t have to say anything to, why I was canceling plans, why I didn’t want to do things that used to be really fun two weeks a month ago, a year ago, five years ago, even as this continues to evolve and change. And the other part I wanted people to do was say my brother’s name and talk about him that had a life.
(13:03):
Because what I felt that everything about my brother became about his death, and we then… Because of the way that my brother died by suicide, it was a fairly easy cover, essentially, to not talk about suicide in the community. When we did in the beginning, we were met with such judgment, such backlash, and also just again, with goody intentions, but people just not knowing what to do with us and avoiding us or dropping off the food, which was lovely, but not coming to talk to us, not genuinely sort of checking in and therefore the few people that did, you know that they’re truly with you, but therefore to talk about him. I remember after our brother’s funeral service and at the wake, then it was still sort of like this taboo. We weren’t sharing stories like you often did after other services where people passed and memories and things, and it always became too awkward and taboo to talk about-
PART 1 OF 4 ENDS [00:14:04]
Alisha Tarrant (14:03):
The memories and things, and it almost became too awkward and taboo to talk about. And I remember feeling, and if I think back at, I want to be super kind to my 17 year old self, particularly the first six months after my brother died just feels like a whirlwind and mush in my brain, to be honest. And memories change, of course. Over time what we remember in those different things. But I mostly remember the people who were kind and who I could be 100% myself with, and therefore I felt accepted and no one expected me to be the person I was before my brother died.
Mimi Kwa (14:37):
Alicia, can you tell us a story, and tell us what your brother’s name was, and about your relationship with him?
Alisha Tarrant (14:45):
Yeah, thank you for asking me. That’s beautiful. And even, we’re almost at 28 years later, and when I bump into someone that knew my brother, my heart just booms. I just love it so much. So my brother’s name was Dean and he was my big brother. He was my big little brother, I called him. So I’ve got an older brother as well who is my absolute rock. His name’s Craig, and then Dean’s in the middle. And then I was the princess at the end. Daddy’s little girl, still are.
(15:16):
Dean was always a sensitive soul and he always was a people pleaser in beautiful, beautiful ways and would be there for people, his friends in particular. He loved cars. He was a rally driver. He did up many cars, crashed a few as well, started as a mechanic. So we’d talk about himself as definitely not academic, but very, very hands-on. And he was just lovely. He was someone who I always looked up to. And even through our, of course, sibling fights who we absolutely annoyed each other a lot. That’s what you do as siblings, isn’t it?
(15:55):
But yeah, someone that I could always rely on, and particularly as I became older and started to venture out into the world a bit more. And I remember going out with Dean and some of his friends, when I was 16 and things and him very much being the protector, looking after me first and foremost, making sure any of his friends didn’t come anywhere to hear me. Those types of things.
Jo Stanley (16:19):
You speak so beautifully of Dean, and I always think it’s important to name people because he’s with you still, right? 28 years later. He’s not erased.
Alisha Tarrant (16:34):
No, no. And I think of the grief journey, which stays with us forever as well, because a hundred percent I’m with you, Jo. I think the people that we love, we will carry forever in all ways, shapes, and forms. And I will still often find myself thinking, I wonder what his life would’ve been now. He would’ve been 52 now. His birthday was Christmas Eve. Would he have married? Would he have had children? Would I be an auntie to those children, potentially? And what would our relationship be, because if I think of it, that’s what I still miss. I miss what we had, but you miss the future as well.
(17:17):
So I think now, as a mid forties woman, I’d love to be able to go for a beer and dinner with my big brother and still be talking about life and navigate that together like I do with my big brother who I’m blessed to have here. And that’s that continual part of absolutely carrying people with you, with love. It also acknowledges that that grief is always there as well.
Mimi Kwa (17:39):
So suicide is obviously something that very sadly and unfortunately touches a lot of our lives. I grew up with a mum who made multiple attempts on her own life, and my cousin Kathy took her life almost 10 years ago, and I had another cousin, Nisha, who took her life just before Christmas last year. So it’s very close to me, as well as with so many people. But not everybody goes into the type of work that you’ve gone into. And I’m really interested to know what happened in your life, and in your head, and in your heart between that period when Dean died and when you picked up and started working with Lifeline.
Alisha Tarrant (18:26):
Gosh, that’s a big question Mimi, and thank you for sharing your life experience there as well. And I think suicide touches all human beings in different ways. And, again, I’m such an advocate of talking about it, normalizing the talk about it. I think that’s what I became passionate about. So from experiences early on around the impact of the shame of my brother’s suicide, therefore changing our story, changing our story, which felt untrue and in all honesty made it harder to navigate the grief and how we move forward, because I always felt that I was betraying him in some ways by not speaking his truth in talking openly about suicide early on. I also really understood part of that was protecting myself and protecting my family as well, and whatever they were comfortable with.
(19:14):
There was lots of times and there’s been a lot of growth and some choices, if I went back through life, I would definitely make different ones because I know I turned into a hypervigilant person about suicide. So I feel I swung too far to the other side of the pendulum where I knew nothing about suicide to I was worried about the potential of someone else in my life, and it could have been anyone in my life because we’ve gone over it with a fine tooth comb many, many times. Thankfully, my family are really communicative and we talk about things and we still will go over aspects when it comes up. The need lessens throughout the years, but we searched for the whys and the signs and went through all of the what ifs, and there wasn’t one. There was not one. Even in the rear view mirror, even in hindsight with perfect view, there wasn’t a sign that we saw. Potentially other people.
(20:11):
And this is what scared me the most, to be honest. And therefore I became hypervigilant and I would make some choices in my life which weren’t healthy, say in relationship choices, which prioritized other people because I was fearful if I upset someone, if I had conflict with someone, if I wasn’t people pleasing, then would this have an impact and may they go and kill themselves, to be honest. I remember staying awake some nights thinking about this and thinking, okay, what do I do to make sure this never happens again? Which, logical brain, that’s impossible. And I know this now, but at the time, I was trying to do absolutely everything. So I would prioritize everyone and anything else and do my best and never let anybody down, which that’s also impossible as well, those expectations and pressure, that I understand now. But at the time I thought I was just being the best person I could possibly be.
Mimi Kwa (21:09):
So what was that turning point? What was that moment when you, because there was quite a gap between when Dean died and when you actually started work for Lifeline. So what was the moment that you decided this is what I’m actually going to dedicate my life to?
Alisha Tarrant (21:25):
So, honestly, I remember looking in the mirror one day and not recognizing myself. And not even acknowledging what my values were anymore, and what I stood for anymore because I feel like I had people pleased so much that I lost me. So there was a big, big journey into self-awareness and lots of self-help books, and workshops, and courses, and I connected with incredible people that, while I had people in my life, absolutely, that knew my worth, I’d lost that. Which I didn’t realize for a really long time because I think you try a bit harder piece by piece, little bit by little bit. And I didn’t realize I’d lost all of myself until I honestly didn’t recognize myself in the mirror one day. And that was terrifying.
(22:15):
And from there, I made some life choices and changed a lot and needed to prioritize myself. So after a big space in that, which is forever, to be honest, when I started that journey and I advocate and I will, to my beautiful students in all ways, shapes, and forms, I bang on and bang on about self-awareness and how we learn and grow and look after ourselves to be able to look after other people. So once I realized that, then I realized that I can have a part in people’s lives in supporting them. And then the biggest aha moment was I realized, I’m not responsible for any other human being. I don’t get to make a choice, any level of choice, for any other human being. I can be there to care, love, support, listen, accept, believe. But just like I’m my own person who gets to make my own decisions, so does everybody else.
(23:09):
So once I realized that, Mimi, then I felt I had the confidence to, because one of my fears in why I held back from volunteering with Lifeline was that I’d want to physically bring people home. And then I thought I would definitely carry them emotionally. And none of us can continue to do that, because the weight of that crushes us. So when I realized I could support, and Lifeline has taught me many, many things and gifted me many things, the greatest gift is boundaries.
Jo Stanley (23:37):
So during that time of that, you talk the mushy six months and then following on from that, who was there to support you, to be the person that for, in many instances, Lifeline is now on the phone to the people that call you, was there someone who was your support, was your confidant?
Alisha Tarrant (23:56):
Absolutely. And my parents were absolutely incredible, and I think back to the day that my brother died and I needed to be anywhere else but at home, and I think back to this now, how they just let me be. They didn’t know where I was. This is before we all had mobile phones. So they didn’t know where I was and they just trusted that, or just were doing what they ever needed to do on that day as well. Once the police left my home, phoned my best friend, who we’ve been best friends since year seven. I phoned her and she says, now, she said, “Alicia, you called and I had no idea what you said. It was just absolute mumble, but I knew something really bad had happened.” So the time between, I think I hung up the phone and she was at my front door, still in her pajamas on this Sunday morning, was insta to me.
(24:52):
And she’s been there every moment. And we talk about this quite often. We went to a comedy show last night, which was fantastic. Tears of laughter, which we need as well. And therefore, a person who is just such a rock in my life, and I can be totalling myself all of the best ways and all of the ugliest ways, and we’ve been through life together. As well as there’s certainly other friends and people that have come into my life, even since my brother had died, who can handle the conversation and who can be a part of it and still support my grief when it comes up, particularly around anniversaries. You learn pretty quickly who can weather the storm with you and who’s going to still laugh in the rain when you need to, but not just be there for the rainbow afterwards.
Mimi Kwa (25:46):
We’ve talked about the transformative event in your life, the person and people in your life, but before we get to our origin story, which I’m very excited to hear from Jo about, I’d love to know if there was something else that carried you through that period, whether it was a song, you talked about going to see a comedian last night, a comedy show. Was there a song, or an entertainer, or a book, or something else that helped carry you through that period?
Alisha Tarrant (26:15):
There was a Sophie B. Hawkins song that I played. Oh my gosh, I can’t remember the name of it, but it continually has the line, and the sun comes out again. And I remember back in the day had a CD, CD single, and played that over and over and over again. My older brother now can’t stand that song anymore because I played it so, so, so, so much. And I loved it. And it’s in hindsight that I realize because to me it symbolized hope. It had, of course there’s grief, of course there’s pain and we all go through this. There’s always hope. And this is one of the greatest privileges of when I’m on the crisis line and I’m hearing people’s stories about whatever’s happening in their life, and they’re a hundred percent the focus and that connection you get to have one-on-one with someone, and the lives that people have sometimes is so unbelievably hard, so unbelievably cruel. And then you hear that even a glimmer of hope in another human being.
(27:15):
And then our job here as crisis board is just to be there for that. Hear the pain, we call it sitting in the mud. So we sit in the mud with another human being and then we hear that hope and support that hope. And people bring their own strengths, and therefore, through hearing other people’s adversities and also their strengths, you realize that you have your own still. And the gift of sharing this in the community, again, talking about challenging, hard topics with more openness, honesty, the floodgates of supporting people become open and it becomes so much easier. And therefore, finding things that are incredibly joyful, like a good belly laugh. How good is that? We all need that, all of the time, I think.
PART 2 OF 4 ENDS [00:28:04]
Alisha Tarrant (28:02):
What is that? We all need that all of the time, I think. And even when we were talking about this when… So the past two days, myself and my beautiful colleague delivering suicide intervention training. And as we’re setting up group guidelines, we’ll always add laughter and fun into the terms of group guidelines as well as respect, confidentiality, all the incredibly important things where we’re talking about really challenging confronting topics for a long time. We’ve got to be human as well, acknowledge that we’re going to stuff up, we’re going to say the wrong thing, but also find some light that’s often in the dark. And that’s what gets us through. Many things can exist at once. You could be in immense pain and still find something to laugh about. It doesn’t make either invalid.
Jo Stanley (28:48):
I love that you say that. It is a profound understanding of existence. If you can realize, you can feel two things concurrently, both deep grief and loss and joy almost sometimes. In the moment, you can be having a great time, but also carrying an enormous sadness with you, right?
Alisha Tarrant (29:10):
100%. And acknowledging that also as human beings because I remember after my brother died, when you do laugh for the first time, it feels wrong. It feels wrong, and you think, “Oh my gosh, have I forgotten him? This isn’t how I’m supposed to be. Are people judging me for this?” And therefore, and I think this is one of the great joys of being in my mid 40s now as a woman, to just care less what people think of me.
Mimi Kwa (29:37):
We are big on that here.
Jo Stanley (29:38):
We are big on that. It’s like one of the themes of broad radio is you just develop the, “I didn’t give a shit.”
Jo Stanley (29:45):
The attitude.
Mimi Kwa (29:45):
Yeah.
Alisha Tarrant (29:46):
Yeah. I’m going to be me. There’ll be people that love it, people that hate it, that’s okay. And the freedom of just being more comfortable with that and being more honest is the best.
Jo Stanley (29:58):
I am going to bring an origin story in a moment, but I first wanted to ask you, Alisha, I know that Lifeline Naarm has released the top five reasons that people call Lifeline, and the first one being relationship breakdown. To me, I wanted to ask you, do we have the right strategies starting with being a young person right through into adulthood? Because let’s not assume that as older people, we really know either. But do we have the right strategies to handle rejection? Do we understand that for someone to say, “I don’t want to be with you anymore,” isn’t failing on our behalf?
Alisha Tarrant (30:36):
Oh, that’s gold, Jo. And this is 100% my opinion, but I think no. Part of this is such a bigger, broader conversation absolutely. And I think of our incredible youth coming through, and particularly through recent times with COVID and restrictions and the level of not only diagnosed mental health, the conversations around mental health, and therefore there would be a lot that’s undiagnosed. The coping strategies that this unattainable goal of being happy, what is happy, and again, why it’s such a big broad conversation. But we’re also trying to make people happy. I really believe such of the strength in life is supporting people through rejection, supporting people through disappointment.
(31:28):
We’re all about the feels here at Lifeline. So our biggest tool in communication is reflection of feeling. And this is one of the things that sets Lifeline apart. Hence, we sit in the mud with people. Hear the pain, sit with the pain. We’re not trying to move people through it. We want to sit with them. We’re not in it. It’s not our situation. And the strength in this, oh my God, I have dreams, fantasies of every young person from primary school starting this type of education, just talking about communication and all feelings are good and accepted. As in there’s no such thing as negative or positive feelings they can bring up. They don’t feel great sometimes for sure. They can feel shit. But they all have a purpose and it all shows meaning.
(32:15):
And therefore, supporting people through rejection, disappointment, acknowledging that hurts, that sucks. “This was a shock. I can hear your heartbreak. I can hear your devastation.” Sit with that. Not, “There’s plenty more fish in the sea. That’s okay. You’ll do better on the next exam. Or if you just work harder…” I know a lot of people have worked incredibly hard and still feel like they fail. And what is fail as well? So it’s a massive conversation there, isn’t it?
Jo Stanley (32:41):
Yeah. I love the rabbit hole and we’re going down because you do start to go, what we identify as bad feelings, they’re just feelings. But we’re so bad at the discomfort.
Mimi Kwa (32:52):
They’re just feelings. Exactly. This is the premise of mindfulness too. Just be with it.
Alisha Tarrant (32:58):
Yeah. And this is where the gift of people that will sit with you in your discomfort is immense, like immense. And so I’m so grateful all of our volunteers that I get to have contact with. Amazing human beings that bring, I think, the most precious gift we have, which is our time. And then they bring their heart. And then they bring their openness for me to continually go, “Be self-aware and reflect feelings. Whatever feelings. All the feelings.”
Jo Stanley (33:28):
I also want to ask because I think it’s really, really relevant at the moment, the second of the top five. I should tell what the top five are because people are going to be, “What are they?” So we did say relationship breakdown is number one. Then financial distress, isolation. Oh my god, loneliness is such a massive thing. Substance abuse. And then grief and loss. So they’re the top five. The second one being financial distress, which I think is a really hard one because essentially if you didn’t have that financial hardship, you’d probably not be struggling so much, right? So if someone calls or someone is expressing to us that they’ve got this distress because they really just are so strapped financially, how do you help in that situation? Because If they won a million dollars, would it be taken away?
Alisha Tarrant (34:11):
Oh, that’s fantastic reflection, Jo, because that’s such a good question for us, is I’ve always believed money doesn’t make the world go round, but I feel most of us have probably been in a position, well, I relate to this, where you’re having two-minute noodles for dinner because otherwise I can’t afford the electricity bill, and then we don’t have heat and all these things. And this is what we’re hearing currently on the crisis line more and more absolutely right now around the cost of living crisis and people deciding between food or medication. “Yeah, I’m having a sandwich so I can make sure I can keep my dog alive, who is my one companion. And without the dog, I have nothing in the immense loneliness.” While we look at those categories, I guess, where we look at the biggest factors and why people call Lifeline, and you just said this as well, Jo, loneliness is actually the biggest connecting factor with people. So this is why I think also people continue to phone Lifeline.
(35:09):
So yes, if I could have a million dollars, then that would help me pay my mortgage, absolutely. Pay all the bills, not have that stress. Would it help with the loneliness? Sometimes not at all. But would it take away one factor that would make life easier right now and then potentially I actually have the emotional energy to look at how I might connect with other human beings that therefore helps with the loneliness? And it comes back to that hierarchy of needs. We’ve got to look at the fundamentals first. People need safe shelter, they need clean water, they need food. And then the love, the security, the safety, the emotional wellbeing, this acknowledgement that we’re a package deal and spirituality is our whole self. So to be well in our whole selves means mind, body, spirit. When you literally can’t put food on the table, 100% that’s going to jump to the priority list.
Mimi Kwa (36:07):
Can I just jump in there, yet another question before we get to the origin story. We’re burning with questions here, Alisha. When you talk about the mind, body and the spiritual aspect of it, obviously what I’m about to say isn’t going to take away all of those practical issues that plague people like financial stability and loneliness. But is mindfulness and meditation something that you try to steer people towards to embrace, to support them? Or is that just too farfetched and ideal at this time?
Alisha Tarrant (36:45):
Yeah, that’s great insight, Mimi. In all honesty, the way we often describe when we’re sitting with someone, their phone’s Lifeline, is we’re in the passenger seat of their car. So we are going along for the ride, because steer is a great word there, that at any point in time if we’re tempted to take the steering wheel, then we need to hold that self-awareness in us and back off and acknowledge “This is not my crisis. This is not my conversation. I’m very much a part of it.”
(37:16):
We talk about this as a two-way conversation with all of the focus on one person, and therefore it’s having the toolkits of, we certainly have a ginormous thousands and thousands of referrals on our database. It’s also not instantly thinking, “I need an external referral here.” It’s hearing a person’s internal strength, hearing the resilience through what they’ve got through before, linking into what actually supports them. So one of the things that we’ll ask is a big broad question of, “How do you feel supported? Who do you feel supported by?” Similar to beautiful questions you asked me before. And therefore it’s from that being broad, open question they might then say, “Oh, I’ve tried to meditate or do mindfulness. I find it really hard.” Tell me more about that. “I used to see a counselor.” How did you find that? “I feel relief when I’m walking the dog.” Tell me about that relief.
(38:13):
So we’re not steering. We’re going along for the ride. And then we want to support and reframe and boost up whatever might help the other person. This is why Lifeline doesn’t give advice, because advice is ego-driven. Advice is what I think, hypothetically if I was in your situation, I would do. And then it’s about ego. Whereas when someone’s in a crisis state, whatever that is, that’s all about the feels and the meaning behind those feels for them. So what might work amazingly for me, it could be a disaster for you and vice versa. So we want to open the pathways of still that conversation and then support.
(38:54):
Often when people phone Lifeline, their situation doesn’t change after a call. What we’re aiming to do, what we hope for is that a person feels different about their situation. So even if that’s 10, 20, 30 minutes of respite where the 100% focus is on this human being in this moment, not trying to fix, not trying to solve, not trying to rescue, no platitudes, sit with pain, desperation, hopelessness, fear, anger, whatever it is. And then ask them, “What would help you right now?” And then some people go, “Thank you. I can now get out of bed. I can now go to bed. I can have a shower.” It’s one step that can link to the next step and the next step and the next step. So I think the greatest gift actually Lifeline has given me is the ability to stay present, to make sure I’m not steering, that I’m not leading, that I’m going with someone on their journey, their ride, their space, whatever we’d like to call it.
Jo Stanley (39:56):
It’s extraordinary what you all offer. And you are in many ways are sitting in that place as a sliding door moment for the people that are calling you, Mimi, which is you sit in someone else’s A to B just through the calls that you’re taking in that conversation and being present, as you say, just sitting with the person who’s called, it is amazing. We do do this little feature on the podcast, an origin story about a well-known thing. And usually one of us brings it and then the others can guess along the way what the well-known thing is. And it’s a lovely surprise and delight, but actually it’s a little bit different today, Mimi. I’m going to tell you what it is right at the top, okay? Because it’s kind of-
Mimi Kwa (40:41):
Oh?
Jo Stanley (40:41):
I am.
Mimi Kwa (40:41):
It’s okay. All right. I won’t walk out, but… This is-
Jo Stanley (40:47):
We’re mixing up.
Mimi Kwa (40:48):
As opposed to surprise and delight, this is shock and dismay.
Alisha Tarrant (40:51):
Lots of feels.
Mimi Kwa (40:51):
Like, no, no, no.
Jo Stanley (40:53):
Lots of feels. That’s right. No, because it’s sort of relevant to my next question. And I was like, “You know what? I want to share with you because…” I don’t know. So, okay, I’m breaking the form, Mimi. You just got to go with me, okay?
(41:09):
So yeah, the origin story of the payphone, right? So it’s relevant of course, because all of your conversations happened by phone, right, Alisha? So the first payphone was created by a man called William Gray, 1888 in Connecticut, right? So back then, of course no one had phones in their houses. And if you did have a phone, if you’re wealthy enough, you paid the exchange company. Remember those images of the women with the exchanges putting the plugs into the different sort of things, right? So you paid a subscription to that company. That’s how you paid for your phone. So anyway, William’s wife was sick and he needed to get a doctor. And of course he doesn’t have a phone in his home, so he runs to the nearest place where he knew there was a phone and it was a factory down the street and they wouldn’t let him use it because he didn’t have-
PART 3 OF 4 ENDS [00:42:04]
Jo Stanley (42:03):
… the factory down the street. And they wouldn’t let him use it, because he didn’t have a subscription. So eventually they did let him use it because [inaudible 00:42:08] explained that his wife was sick, yada, yada. But it was the very first moment someone thought, you know what? You should be able to put a coin in and pay per use. And he then went on to create a telephone company, and he invented the payphone based on that. Where would we be without William Gray? Well, I love the fact that now payphones are now free. Public phones are free, because I think people understand that you need to be able to… If you are picking up a public phone, you need instant connection. Right? You don’t need to be grappling for a phone card.
Alisha Tarrant (42:46):
Yeah.
Jo Stanley (42:47):
And it really is just like the practical manifestation of actually needing to reach out from wherever you are and talk to another human. Right?
Mimi Kwa (42:56):
I love it. I love it. And I have to say, back in the day when you’d line up all of your 20 cent pieces or 10 cent pieces on the gold phone or the payphone, you would actually make a phone call for fun. But these days, if you’re going to use a payphone, it’s not for fun. It’s because it’s an emergency situation. Or you do really need to connect for a practical reason. So yeah, that’s a really great story. Thank you, Jo.
Jo Stanley (43:23):
But Alisha, do you think there’s something special or particularly powerful about the fact that people are calling, speaking to someone, using a telephone in that there’s anonymity to that?
Alisha Tarrant (43:33):
100%. Sometimes there’s the misconception that everyone that contacts Lifeline has nobody else to speak to. People choose to speak to a stranger. And often what people say to us is, I do have other people in my life that I don’t want to burden them. I don’t want to continue to burden them. I’ve already put them through so much. And also, people often reflect back to Lifeline that, “You listen. You are the people that listen. You don’t judge me. You don’t try to fix me. You’re not trying to instantly say, ‘Who else can you talk to?'” And they’re also… The person that’s calling that picks up the phone, I think bravely, and dials 13 11 14, with whatever they want to talk about, they’re in control. So if it’s not working for them in the nicest way possible, they can just hang up on us. And there’s not a consequence. There’s not a follow through. There’s not then someone saying, “Why won’t you keep talking to me? Make sure you keep talking to me. No, we’re going to sort this out now.” It’s so much on that person’s timeframe. And therefore, sometimes we even take calls where there’s barely anything said.
(44:37):
The majority of calls, us as crisis supporters should be saying the least. We should be hearing a lot of, “Mmm.” That sounds hard. I can hear us saying the least, because it’s the space for that person who’s called to tell their story. And therefore whatever they feel the need to come out with… And it’s a 100% in their timeframe. And what we talk about a lot is dropping any expectations. So we are not expecting someone to be better, happier, calmer. In fact, often people will escalate during a conversation. And often that’s about the person feeling comfortable to let all of that out, and they’re feeling in that safe space. And I think the connection over the phone, which means they can be in their own comfortable space, their private space… Sometimes people will phone us from a busy space, a loud space as well, that they feel comfortable. But it’s therefore totally up to the person where they are, how long they’re going to talk to us for, how much they share. It’s all in their control. So they get to choose, the power of choice there.
Mimi Kwa (45:41):
And what does Lifeline Narrm need? I mean, it goes without saying, doesn’t it? More funding, more volunteers, more resources. You let us know, we are here for you. What does Lifeline [inaudible 00:45:53] need in this moment?
Alisha Tarrant (45:55):
Oh, thank you for asking. Because we want to build a culture and a community that is about the community, for the community. And therefore people connecting with us in whatever way, shape, or form that they feel… We want to build on. And we want to make sure we build from a solid foundation. Often our first thought is for our help-seekers, our callers to Lifeline, and then very, very closely backed up is our incredible volunteers who answer the phone. We want to make sure that we have everything to support our volunteers so that they can continue to support the callers. So building this community, which is starting from fresh, which is super, super, super exciting, and therefore having the support around us, which 100% means funding. Because logistics exist, bills exist. We want to make sure we have as many flavors of tea and coffee and snacks that keep our incredible volunteers going and a safe space for them to come.
(46:57):
We want to build partnerships with people throughout the community that want to help us build and help us grow, that are advocates, that are supporters, that align with the values that we align with around respect and diversity and acceptance of all human beings, acknowledging that we all have triumphs and tragedies, and we’re all going to go through life. So I encourage anyone that’s interested to visit the Lifeline Narrm website, which is lifelinenaarm.org.au. You could simply Google it as well. We’d love to have a connection. If you’re interested in being a crisis supporter, we’d love you to come along to an information session, find out if this is for you. Find out if this is something… We want to give as much information as possible, so that people make a choice to join our beautiful community. And therefore, we try to be as transparent, as honest as we can be, so that people understand the expectations, the commitment, the training that’s required to take a call that could be from someone who hasn’t spoken to another human being for a month.
(48:04):
It could be someone that is at genuine real risk of suicide in this moment, and therefore, the rigorous training and continual support, debriefing, supervisions, all those things, are crucial to keep the service a strong, consistent one for anyone that calls Lifeline. But therefore, all the other aspects, if crisis support is not for you, that’s okay as well. Again, coming back to, if you want to partner with us, connect with us around building this community that’s yet about the community, for the community.
Jo Stanley (48:36):
The volunteers that you have there at Lifeline, Alisha, I’m sure all bring their own stories. And you’ve all then come together as a community, and so you’re sitting in a shared being, the space that you’re sharing. So all of these many stories bring this community together. That’s pretty powerful to know that.
Alisha Tarrant (48:59):
Oh, I am in awe constantly of how many people want to join the community and what they’re bringing. And the strengths and lived experience and diversity in our incredible volunteers are just as amazing as the people that call Lifeline. And I think that’s what makes it human. We acknowledge that we get the privilege who’s answering the call today. I could potentially be the person needing to call tomorrow, and that’s part of the humanity. We’re all on level ground here. Just what’s my role today? And I’m in awe of the people that I get the privilege of hearing their lived experience. And from that, and I feel I resonate with that, when we are ready, which is crucial, it is about being able to then acknowledge what’s mine and support someone in a situation that’s not mine. So how I continue to separate myself from the person in crisis in a healthy, supportive way to not take that on emotionally. And also that’ll help us steer away from not giving advice, but the strength that comes from people’s own personal and lived experiences to therefore want to be there for other people. Just salt of the earth superstars. What a privilege I get to be a part of it, even whatever size, shape, form that impact is. Yeah, it’s why that can’t kick me out the door.
Mimi Kwa (50:24):
Amazing. Well, we think you are a superstar, Alisha. And we just really want to know what is your sense of being, then? You’re in it. You’re in the mud. You are connecting with this rich tapestry of humanity, both the volunteers, the workers that you work with, and the people who call in. What is your sense of being? You seem so incredibly aligned with what you’re doing. So what is your be?
Alisha Tarrant (50:50):
My be is to continue to be me and no longer feel the need to change. Bend, definitely. Be flexible. Be me, and therefore support others to be themselves. And if I can add particularly communication skills and confidence to be themselves, to therefore sit with other people who are being themselves, then… Imagine the world that did that. Imagine the world that sat with people exactly as they are. I honestly dream about this, and I think we can do it. I think anyone can do this. And one of the great things about the training that we have in different aspects, including we deliver corporate training into the community, is if crisis support’s not for you, great. Come along and learn some of the skills that will definitely help in your life, which again, help me be me. And the most feedback I get from all of our beautiful volunteers that go through training is, “I learned more about myself in this training.” And when we know ourselves, and when we can stand in our own truth and feel strength in our own vulnerabilities, then we give open arms for everyone else to be that as well.
Jo Stanley (52:06):
So powerful. I just love it.
Mimi Kwa (52:09):
Amazing.
Jo Stanley (52:09):
Love it.
Mimi Kwa (52:11):
Amazing. You just keep being you. We’ll be us. We will create this world of just beingness, being ourselves. Oh, I love it.
Jo Stanley (52:19):
Wouldn’t that be beautiful?
Mimi Kwa (52:21):
Yeah, it really would. And God, people’s journeys would be so enriched by that. Are you actually at the call center at the moment, Alisha? Can I hear people taking calls behind you?
Alisha Tarrant (52:32):
Yes. It’s next door. So I’m in my office. It’s just next door.
Jo Stanley (52:36):
What a great honor to have intersected with your journey today and with Lifeline Narrm, which is happening right there in the mud as we speak.
Alisha Tarrant (52:46):
Absolutely. Yeah. It’s such a beautiful, privileged space and filled with snacks, often tears, lots of laughter as well, but the greatest gift of humanity in this space.
Mimi Kwa (52:57):
And Alisha, do you know the expression, ” No mud, no lotus?”
Alisha Tarrant (53:02):
Yes, I do. And I don’t know if it’s probably showing here, my lotus necklace. It’s very much a symbol and a reflection that I often live by. And I know you can’t see it right now, but I’ve got my office wall next to me, which is full of photos and affirmations and things that help remind me to be me in all of the things. So yeah, I love that. “No mud, no lotus.” I absolutely love that Mimi.
Mimi Kwa (53:28):
Well, me too. That helps me a lot as well.
Mimi Kwa (53:31):
Thank you so much, Alisha. We have loved meeting you. Thank you so much, and for everything that you do, for everybody that you support. Thank you.
Alisha Tarrant (53:39):
I really appreciate this space and the opportunity. And my hope is that this opens the doors again for people to be themselves and have these conversations, talk openly about suicide, mental health, challenges to stress, whatever it would be. Because then I think we have the more likelihood of growing the lotus out of the mud, but there’s such strength in the mud.
Mimi Kwa (54:02):
That’s a beautiful way to end. Thank you. That was just wonderful.
Jo Stanley (54:06):
Beautiful.
Jo Stanley (54:09):
Thank you for listening. We love you joining us for our A to Be chats.
Mimi Kwa (54:13):
Yes, we do. Please see our show notes for our acknowledgement of country and all the people who help us put this podcast together, as well as interesting links to our guest’s work and other references we’ve mentioned.
Jo Stanley (54:25):
Such as your frequently unverified quotes.
Mimi Kwa (54:29):
Yes, I may still need to check a few of those. Thank you.
Jo Stanley (54:32):
We’re Jo.
Mimi Kwa (54:33):
And Mimi from A to Be. Rate, follow, and get in touch on our website.
Jo Stanley (54:38):
And let us know who’s A to Be you’d like to find out about.
Mimi Kwa (54:42):
We can’t wait for you to hear our next conversation.