Transcript: A to BE Episode 19

Mimi Kwa (00:03):
People say life is a journey, not a destination, but how do you know you’re on the right path?
Jo Stanley (00:10):
If only we could see the signs when they appear.
Mimi Kwa (00:13):
Well, I’m Mimi Kwa.
Jo Stanley (00:14):
And I’m Jo Stanley.
Mimi Kwa (00:15):
And on A to Be, we speak to fascinating people about how they navigated their way to be here now, having profound impact on the world.
Jo Stanley (00:26):
We hope our conversations will help you reflect on everything you’ve been through to get here, the triumphs, challenges and bumps along the road.
Mimi Kwa (00:35):
And if you haven’t already, find your own map to what matters.
Sonny Jane Wise (00:41):
I’ve seen the harm and consequences of being labeled as disordered. I’ve seen what happens when someone grows up believing there’s something wrong with them.
Mimi Kwa (00:52):
Okay. So first of all, our guest today has just the best name.
Jo Stanley (00:56):
Oh, we love a good name here.
Mimi Kwa (00:57):
We do. We do. Sonny Jane Wise is an advocate and author. They’ve written a book called We’re All Neurodiverse.
Jo Stanley (01:06):
Now, on the face of it sounds like a very bold statement to make, and some people might be affronted by it, but that’s because most of us just don’t understand the terminology.
Mimi Kwa (01:17):
No, and I definitely didn’t. There’s just so much we do not know about neurodiversity.
Jo Stanley (01:23):
This chat was so eyeopening and Sonny’s story of growing up with a diagnosis of autism and how that affected them to founding a drop-in care center for queer, neurodivergent, and disabled adults is heartbreaking and uplifting.
Mimi Kwa (01:38):
Yes, and it’s a really challenging conversation, but it is well worth diving into because we do relish a challenge.
Jo Stanley (01:48):
Sonny, thank you so much for joining us on A to Be.
Sonny Jane Wise (01:51):
Thank you for having me.
Jo Stanley (01:53):
Your book, We’re All Neurodiverse, I have to start there because it is phenomenal. It is one of the best books I’ve read as an explainer on neurodiversity and just the conversation around normal, what is normal, right? And really just, it’s so brilliant. Congratulations on this book.
Sonny Jane Wise (02:16):
Thank you. I’m glad you got the message that this is to start a conversation about what is normal, to challenge what is normal. So that’s literally all I wanted, start a conversation.
Mimi Kwa (02:30):
To begin with, the title is just such a huge title. Even as I was leaving the house on the way to the studio today, my daughter, who’s of course on school holidays now, said, “Mum, how can that be true? What does that mean?” So I said, “You’ll have to listen to the podcast.” So tell us, how can that be true? What does it mean?
Sonny Jane Wise (02:52):
Yeah. The title is definitely a conversation starter. So We’re All Neurodiverse means that we are all a part of neurodiversity. Both neurodivergent people and neurotypical people, we are all a part of neurodiversity. So when I say We’re All Neurodiverse, I mean us as a society, as humanity on a whole are neurodiverse. Our classrooms are neurodiverse, our families are neurodiverse, our communities are neurodiverse because we each have a unique brain. We’re all a unique individual, and that’s what makes up diversity. That’s what makes up neurodiversity.
(03:32):
However, when not all neurodivergent because not everyone diverges from neurnormativity. Not everyone functions in a way that diverges from neuronormativity where their functioning is labeled as a disorder. So while we are all neurodiverse, we’re not all neurodivergent. And often that’s where the misunderstanding is, because some people believe neurodiverse and neurodivergent to be interchangeable, but they’re not. So it’s also kind of a little lesson in itself as well.
Jo Stanley (04:04):
The book is full of lessons. It has a glossary, it has history. I have found it so valuable. Is part of the issue in this conversation the need for labels? Are labels a good thing or a reductive thing?
Sonny Jane Wise (04:23):
I think labels are both helpful and unhelpful depending on the context and depending on the usage and depending on whether labels are weaponized against individuals. I think when labels are coercive and come with oppression, discrimination, and being pathologized and being punished, that’s when labels can be unhelpful, when they’re weaponized. But when labels are self-chosen and come with empowerment and community and pride and all the helpful things, then… So, both.
Mimi Kwa (05:02):
So how then do labels develop in an empowering way in which they won’t be weaponized? How can we actually extract labels about neurodiversity, neurodivergent individuals from patriarchal language and oppressive history? Because it’s big, isn’t it?
Sonny Jane Wise (05:24):
It is really big, and that’s why I do criticize the DSM and the concept of disorder within the book, because that is a label that has been influenced by colonialism, by capitalism, by white supremacy, by the patriarchy, by unfair expectations and standards surrounding on what an ideal person should look like and function. And that has shaped what we label as a disorder and how we punish people and exclude people and pathologize their very existence or their emotions or their responses to trauma. I think that’s where neurodivergent is a label that came from the community, that was defined not by the pathology paradigm or the patriarchy, but just acknowledging a simple fact that someone functions in a way that diverges from neuronormativity and that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with them. That doesn’t mean there’s a problem with their brain. And neurodivergent moves away from that pathologizing understanding of ourselves.
Jo Stanley (06:36):
We need a couple of quick explainers, one being DSM, because I don’t think many people will even know what that is, and the second being what you just then referred to, which was the pathology paradigm.
Sonny Jane Wise (06:50):
I’ve been in the psychiatric system since I was a very young child, so I forget that DSM is not common knowledge. So the DSM is a Diagnostic Statistical Manual, and it’s basically a book that contains every diagnosis, every psychiatric or mental health or neurological or neurodevelopmental diagnosis, so autism, ADHD, bipolar, BPD, anxiety. And it’s the book that psychiatrists and psychologists use to diagnose individuals and match up symptoms with a diagnosis.
Mimi Kwa (07:28):
And talk about labeling.
Sonny Jane Wise (07:30):
Yeah. Yep, yep. I mean, fun fact, prolonged grief disorder was added to the DSM.
Jo Stanley (07:36):
What’s prolonged grief disorder?
Sonny Jane Wise (07:38):
Basically, you have a disorder when you grieve a lot more than six months and it impacts your ability to work and do things.
Jo Stanley (07:46):
Now that really, I just think, how do we define how long grief should last?
Sonny Jane Wise (07:55):
Absolutely.
Jo Stanley (07:55):
And isn’t it completely appropriate when you’re in a grieving state that it will impact you?
Sonny Jane Wise (08:00):
Yeah.
Jo Stanley (08:00):
Why do we pathologize that?
Sonny Jane Wise (08:02):
Exactly. That is what I question, and that is actually how the DSM has been the entire time it’s been in existence. It is trying to control how people respond to trauma. It’s trying to control how people grieve, how people experience depression, how people think, how people learn. Yeah.
Mimi Kwa (08:23):
So this is obviously part of a systemic construct. Can it be re-imagined? Or realistically, is it just too late for any of that? You have to work with what you’ve been given.
Sonny Jane Wise (08:40):
It’s so hard because idealistically, I would love to say that we can, it’s not too late. I mean, otherwise, what are we fighting for, if we think it’s too late? I think things can change, but, oh, is it going to happen in my lifetime? I really hope so. But I do think it requires a complete re-imagining, a complete shift in paradigms, a complete shift in our frameworks in how we understand individuals. And we actually honestly can’t do that without challenging everything else, like challenging capitalism, challenging colonialism, unpacking white supremacy, being committed to anti-racism. All of that is tied into challenging how we label people and how we view how people function.
Jo Stanley (09:34):
And challenging the pathology paradigm. Can you explain this?
Sonny Jane Wise (09:37):
Yes. So the pathology paradigm is the dominant lens, the dominant framework in how we currently understand people and the way they function, the way they communicate, the way they feel, the way they learn. And the pathology paradigm is what underpins psychiatry and psychology, the mental health field. It’s based on the idea that there is one right mind, there is one right way to function, there is a normal brain, and any deviation from that one right way to function, that normal brain, means they have a disorder, that there’s something wrong with them.
Jo Stanley (10:16):
Right. It’s very much defined by people who decide that they’re normal and everybody else isn’t, right?
Mimi Kwa (10:22):
And that could be the colonialist patriarchy at work.
Jo Stanley (10:25):
Yes. You think? Yeah.
Mimi Kwa (10:25):
Who knows? Who knows?
Jo Stanley (10:30):
Man, this is why the book is so fascinating, because it actually… You’re so cleverly mapping out the history of how this has happened, the theories behind it, and then giving us an alternative, which is a movement of change that we really support here. I love that. I think that it is shifting, maybe not fast enough. But then you show us a different way, a way in which, as you say, we’re all neurodiverse, a world in which we accept everyone and not try to change them. Is that the goal?
Sonny Jane Wise (11:03):
Exactly. It’s just basically accepting that there are multiple ways to function. There are multiple ways to learn, multiple ways to communicate, to feel, to exist as a person, to pay attention, to process your emotions, to express your emotions, basically just multiple ways to be a person. And there is no right way .
Jo Stanley (11:24):
And the step beyond that is then to create a world in which all versions of can thrive, because currently that world doesn’t exist.
Sonny Jane Wise (11:33):
Yeah, that world doesn’t exist. It really doesn’t. It doesn’t exist in our classrooms, in our workplaces, in our relationships, in how we’re supposed to present in the public, how we’re supposed to learn. Yeah, it really isn’t. And then obviously it’s reflected in people’s attitudes as well.
Mimi Kwa (11:52):
So Sonny, for you, growing up in a world where none of these idealistic circumstances exist, how did you find your way? Because from what I’ve read in your book, it was pretty dark to begin with. And so what was that journey like for you to be able to step into thriving yourself? What were you like as a child? Where did you grow up? What was your environment like?
PART 1 OF 4 ENDS [00:12:04]
Sonny Jane Wise (12:18):
I was obviously very unhappy as a child. So from the age of 11 to 25, I had a lot of suicide attempts, a lot of self-harm, a lot of bullying, not having many friends; very unhappy.
Mimi Kwa (12:36):
So what is it at age 11 that makes you think that it’s not worth going on? What was the world telling you about you that made you believe at the time that you needed fixing or you needed to change somehow?
Sonny Jane Wise (12:51):
The world was telling me, and not just the world, but the mental health professionals around me, my family around me, my teachers, fellow students–everyone was telling me that there was something wrong with me. That I was the problem; that I wasn’t liked, I wasn’t loved, I wasn’t wanted.
(13:12):
And so when you are constantly hearing all those messages and those messages are reinforced through people’s actions, you start to believe that. You start to believe they’re right, and it’s true. And therefore that was a logical choice in-
Mimi Kwa (13:29):
Of course. And you got no one around you supporting you.
Jo Stanley (13:32):
And can you just explain, did you have a diagnosis? What do you identify as?
Sonny Jane Wise (13:38):
Yeah. So when I was between seven and eight years old, I was diagnosed with autism and ADHD. So I had a diagnosis from a very young age.
Jo Stanley (13:48):
And what years were they?
Sonny Jane Wise (13:50):
1999 and 2000.
Jo Stanley (13:52):
Because I was just trying to get a sense for… When I was a 10 and 11-year-old, those words were almost never said. It was just-
Mimi Kwa (14:01):
I don’t even know that they existed.
Jo Stanley (14:03):
This is the ’80s. But I don’t know if the late ’90s were any better.
Sonny Jane Wise (14:06):
The late ’90s, well, they were saying the words, but they weren’t saying them in a nice way. Yeah, in the ’90s, there was a very deficit understanding of autism. We didn’t have access to the resources that we have now. We didn’t have access to neurodiversity. It was only just being created.
(14:25):
We didn’t have access to an affirming understanding of autism or ADHD or anything, or ABA, which is a very… not good. It’s a very abusive therapy for autistic children.
(14:41):
Social skills class, again, not affirming, and then people… A lot of stereotypes and misconceptions and harmful ideas about autism that were reinforced and told to me. So yeah, it wasn’t a good time.
Mimi Kwa (14:57):
What’s ABA? Can I just in jump in?
Sonny Jane Wise (14:59):
Applied behavioral analysis therapy.
Mimi Kwa (15:02):
And how is that damaging?
Sonny Jane Wise (15:04):
So basically, it focuses on changing an autistic person and getting rid of autistic traits. They fall… And it removes the autonomy from a child and it focuses on rewards and punishments, so basically on compliance.
(15:21):
So there’s forcing an autistic kid to make eye contact, even though making eye contact is very uncomfortable and distressing. Getting autistic kid to stop stimming, even though stimming serves an important purpose.
(15:37):
There’s actually a few studies out there that show how ABA is very traumatic for autistic children, and it’s shared the lived experience of autistic adults who have gone through ABA and have recounted how traumatic it was.
Mimi Kwa (15:52):
So once again, trying to change the person so that they fit in with and conform with the way other people are supposed to interact socially to make everybody else feel comfortable, basically.
Sonny Jane Wise (16:04):
Yeah, because they believe the way we function is wrong.
Mimi Kwa (16:07):
So was ABA a treatment that you had to endure?
Sonny Jane Wise (16:11):
Yes. Not as intensely as other people, but it was something I went through and social skills class, which is where you learn how to socialize in neuron normative ways.
Jo Stanley (16:24):
Half the time I think I need that.
Sonny Jane Wise (16:27):
But honestly, all I can remember from social skills class was there was this one girl and she loved horses. So every time I saw her, she always had something to do with horses. And that’s all I can remember.
Jo Stanley (16:40):
Oh, horsey girls, I’ve always been jealous of them.
Mimi Kwa (16:42):
Oh, yeah.
Jo Stanley (16:42):
Horsey girls.
Sonny Jane Wise (16:43):
Yeah.
Mimi Kwa (16:45):
The gymcana.
Sonny Jane Wise (16:45):
Yeah.
Jo Stanley (16:47):
So Sonny, I mean, I’m guessing school was an incredibly lonely experience for you. Did you have friends? Did you feel completely isolated?
Sonny Jane Wise (16:57):
Primary school was horrible. I went to seven different primary schools, so definitely never had… I was always the new person and I was bullied a lot. And yeah, primary school was a very isolating experience with a lot of bullying and some very horrible memories.
Mimi Kwa (17:15):
Do you think that other kids were experiencing that too? But because you were sort of in your own experience, none of you ever connected or identified that somebody else was going through this isolation?
Sonny Jane Wise (17:31):
I think there were definitely other kids who were also experiencing isolation. I’m not sure if all of them were experiencing being chase into the bathrooms and bashed by other kids, but I do know how the kids were definitely bullied and treated poorly.
(17:51):
And then high school, the bullying became less direct. And I also kind of started fighting back in high school. So by year 10, I wasn’t getting picked on for fights anymore, which was great.
Jo Stanley (18:10):
You mean physically fighting back?
Sonny Jane Wise (18:12):
Yeah.
Jo Stanley (18:13):
Wow.
Sonny Jane Wise (18:13):
Which I got punished for. Obviously, I can accept that, but the only times I physically fought was in self-defense. But then I think with high school and teenagers, the bullying and exclusion became more subtle, more covert. Yeah.
Mimi Kwa (18:35):
Was there a teacher or anybody during those times in primary school and high school who really helped you through that?
Sonny Jane Wise (18:44):
In one of the primary schools, there was–Ms. Callahan. That was a primary school I went to for two and a half years. And yeah, Ms. C, Ms. Callahan was incredible. I used to have lunch and recess with her in the classroom because no friends, and because my mom had four other kids, she would take me to choir practice sometimes or to debate practice to help me have positive experiences.
Jo Stanley (19:14):
Why did you change school so often?
Sonny Jane Wise (19:16):
I was suspended a lot and got in trouble a lot and bullied a lot. And then I come from a really low socioeconomic background, so my mom had to, was a single parent and so had to move house a lot.
Mimi Kwa (19:31):
So it was part geography and part the circumstances in the school. And when it was the school and not the geographic relocation, was it the school who were encouraging you to leave or was it that your mom making that decision to get you out of that difficult situation or a bit of both?
Sonny Jane Wise (19:49):
A bit of both, yeah. There was definitely one school where they wanted me gone, but there was a lot of complicated… Primary school was very complicated.
Jo Stanley (20:01):
I just feel so much compassion and, incredibly, I don’t know, full of love, but sadness also for your child self, Sonny, like how you managed to get through that time and still be learning. That’s the critical side of school, right? You want to be learning, and yet you’re in essentially an environment that felt unsafe.
Sonny Jane Wise (20:24):
Yeah. I definitely did not learn much because of how unsafe the environments often were, which is why creating affirming environments, why accommodating your divergent people and creating safe environments is so important because otherwise, how will people learn? How will people be able to reach their full potential? How will people be able to work and do their job if they don’t feel safe?
Mimi Kwa (20:52):
Well, how did you learn? Because you’re such an extraordinarily articulate human being, so you must have been squirreling away books somewhere and hiding out and studying. Was that the case?
Sonny Jane Wise (21:05):
No, I never learned my times tables. Like –
Jo Stanley (21:08):
Well, me either. Look at me now, Sonny. Just got my own podcast.
Sonny Jane Wise (21:14):
My ATAR was really poor. I think it was like 52 or something.
Mimi Kwa (21:20):
But again, that’s a construct, isn’t it?
Sonny Jane Wise (21:21):
Oh, absolutely, it is.
Mimi Kwa (21:21):
So intelligence isn’t bound by your ATAR.
Sonny Jane Wise (21:26):
Yeah. Well, I think yeah, people can be articulate if they learn in different ways or there are a lot of things that I’m really not smart at, but the things that I am smart at, I’m really smart at. But it’s just a narrow topics.
Jo Stanley (21:41):
Oh well, the research and writing in this book are incredible. So there’s no question around your intelligence here. However, I want to know… We always ask in A to B. There’s a sort of a regular theme of our questions. No, once… I don’t think that’s a surprise to anyone.
Mimi Kwa (22:00):
I think as humans, we all have so much in common.
Jo Stanley (22:01):
Well, that’s true, but one of the many-
Mimi Kwa (22:03):
Or we are just lazy with our questions.
Jo Stanley (22:04):
But the question that we often ask is around, once you’ve had this experience, what’s the positive outcome of that? How has that shaped you positively? But usually, when we ask those questions, it’s positive experiences people have been calling on.
(22:18):
But for you, I wonder, how have these incredibly traumatic experiences shaped you as a person? And are there positive things to have come from it or is it just trauma?
Sonny Jane Wise (22:29):
Well, yeah, there’s trauma too. But I guess I would say that’s where my passion for… Everything I wrote in the book I truly believe in. And the reason I’m so passionate and even determined and stubborn about it is because I’ve been on the other side where I’ve seen the harm and consequences of being labeled as disordered.
(22:53):
I’ve seen what happens when someone grows up believing there’s something wrong with them. I’ve seen what happens when people are excluded and bullied and punished and viewed as the problem, and obviously I don’t want anyone else to experience that. So it makes me even more motivated to get this message out and to change the narrative and challenge the pathology paradigm in the DSM.
Jo Stanley (23:23):
What was the transition? How did you find an end to that really dark space where you just didn’t want to be here to then transitioning into becoming someone that yes, you did want to be here, you did want to live, and you were able to find, I’m hoping, some love and acceptance of self?
Mimi Kwa (23:45):
And purpose.
Sonny Jane Wise (23:46):
I think there are a couple of key things that changed things for me is finding people who actually accepted me and loved me and liked me for who I am, like autism and ADHD and bipolar traits and all, and-
Jo Stanley (24:03):
Who were they and where did you find them?
PART 2 OF 4 ENDS [00:24:04]
Mimi Kwa (24:05):
Yeah, how did you find them? Especially as you were in such a dark place throughout your teens and into your twenties? Did somebody just arrive in your life? I believe that there are really no coincidences.
Sonny Jane Wise (24:17):
One of them, I found on Tinder.
Jo Stanley (24:21):
Perfect.
Sonny Jane Wise (24:22):
Yeah, of course. They’re still with me too, which is awesome. Then the other people, I found through social media, who obviously live where I live, and we just became friends. And I don’t know how it works, but they just kept coming back and obviously I think that’s why I do love social media.
(24:43):
It’s given people an opportunity to find other people and develop community and everything. Then I guess as well, what helped me was being introduced to the neurodiversity paradigm, to being introduced to neurodivergence as a concept and this entire new framework and lens and movement.
Jo Stanley (25:03):
Was there an aha moment for you? Was there an epiphany where you’ve just gone, “Oh my God, I’ve been lied to and now I see the reality?”
Sonny Jane Wise (25:14):
Yeah, I think that epiphany was in 2019. Yeah.
Jo Stanley (25:18):
What happened?
Sonny Jane Wise (25:19):
So I was diagnosed with autism and ADHD when I was a kid. Then when I was about 21, I decided that I wasn’t autistic or ADHD because I didn’t fit the harmful… I was defiant. I was like, no, they were wrong. I’m completely normal. I mean, obviously, I am normal because autism and ADHD is normal.
(25:41):
And it wasn’t until 2018, 2019 where I was starting to listen to autistic people online, that I was learning from actual autistic people rather than that deficit narrative. And then I was also going through therapy when that was when I was like, oh, I am autistic. I am ADHD.
(26:06):
And so it was just being able to reframe everything and I guess understand autism and ADHD for myself rather than what I was being told by the people around me.
Mimi Kwa (26:16):
And conceptually, it’s become broader than it would’ve been when you were first diagnosed. So when you were first diagnosed, you may not have identified with the diagnosis and had resistance because of the normative nature of society and culture around-
Sonny Jane Wise (26:34):
And what I was being told as well, I was told that I would never have people skills, that I’m not a people’s person, that I don’t like people. And because that didn’t match up with how I felt. I love people.
(26:51):
I want people to like me. I like having friends. And because that didn’t match up with what I was told about autism, I was like, well, how can I be autistic then if I like having friends?
Jo Stanley (27:02):
I mean, just the pigeonholing is astounding.
Mimi Kwa (27:06):
And the effect that it has had on your life and on the lives of so many people who needlessly have to live with pain and suffering of being treated so appallingly, and it’s just all so unnecessary. This is the sadness in it.
Sonny Jane Wise (27:26):
And it still impacts me to this day in all my friendships, my relationships, the way I think about myself, my automatic response to rejection, my fear and anxiety. I still think poorly of myself all the time because that’s what I was taught until I was 25, 26 years old. So that’s a lot to unprogram, a lot to unpack.
Jo Stanley (27:51):
That’s a long part of your life as well. And I feel this really strongly about a lot of people who aren’t men, let’s say that because men… Let’s just… I don’t know, this might be a controversial thing to say, but I think living within a patriarchy, men aren’t challenged as much as people who aren’t male because we are working harder to fight the inner talk.
(28:20):
And you are working harder to undo all of that language that’s in your head that you were fed. It’s harder for you to walk into a room and meet new people. It’s harder for you to write a book and present it to the world. It’s harder for you to take risks.
Mimi Kwa (28:37):
I mean, I’ve even read a theory around bipolar that it was just a construct that was invented to explain a non-male resistance to the patriarchal world. And so therefore, so many women were diagnosed with bipolar.
Sonny Jane Wise (28:56):
Oh, absolutely. The misdiagnosis of bipolar. Oh, I have so many thoughts on bipolar, however, that will be a whole other-
Mimi Kwa (29:03):
Another conversation.
Sonny Jane Wise (29:05):
Don’t get me started.
Jo Stanley (29:08):
Sonny, you have founded a drop-in center, which I love. Can you explain the purpose of this?
Sonny Jane Wise (29:13):
Yeah, so a drop-in care space is a peer-led community center, a second home or a third home in Adelaide. So even though I’m the director, it’s run by a board of some amazing people who are queer, or trans, or neurodivergent, or disabled themselves.
(29:31):
So it’s not just my baby anymore, it’s a baby owned by many. And it’s basically for adults who want to connect with other people like themselves, who need a safe space, who just want to connect with community.
(29:46):
Because obviously I’ve seen how important and valuable community is, how important connecting with resources by lived experience, by being around people who get you or understand you, or have similar lived experience. And so that’s what the drop-in care space is, just a place to provide those opportunities for people.
Mimi Kwa (30:08):
And how can this type of opportunity trickle down to help younger people as well? Because you are obviously trapped in a cyclical circumstance where you were being bullied and you really didn’t know what to make of your diagnosis. And adults essentially were making all of the decisions for you.
(30:27):
Now, that still happens to this day, and you’re still going to have adults… Parents who are wanting to do the best for their children, but are invariably, or sometimes… I shouldn’t say invariably, but are often making decisions whilst from a good place, are not setting their child up to turn into a fulfilled, happy, thriving adult. So how does your work spill over into that space?
Sonny Jane Wise (30:56):
I’ve actually had a few parents, or a number of parents who have read my book and follow me on social media where I do more of this education. And they’ve said that it challenges the way they approach supporting and understanding their kid. It challenges expectations and ideals and norms that they hold.
(31:19):
Like, you must eat dinner at the table, or you must shower every single day, or your house must always look a certain way, or your kid must look at you when you’re talking to them. There’s all these… Basically these… It challenges your idea of how you should raise your kid.
(31:39):
And what we believe to be true isn’t always necessarily true, especially with what we’ve been taught by society, or what is the right way to parent, or the right way to develop as a kid, or the right way to socialize or play. Or the right way to arrange your kitchen or your bedroom, even something as simple as that.
Jo Stanley (32:01):
I think the challenge for parents, and I’ve had a very small experience with this myself, not that my daughter… She’s not been diagnosed divergent, but she has a… I hate this term as well, because we all have genetic disorders. We just don’t know about them.
(32:15):
But she has a genetic disorder, and I’ve had to take all of my cues from her as a parent, but that has required really resisting a lot of what the medical profession has said to me. And that’s hard-
Mimi Kwa (32:29):
That’s so hard.
Jo Stanley (32:29):
… because as a parent, you think, oh, I should do what… The doctor knows best.
Mimi Kwa (32:34):
You want to look somewhere that you can trust.
Jo Stanley (32:36):
But doctors don’t know best necessarily. Your child is the authority of themselves.
Sonny Jane Wise (32:42):
Yeah, 100%.
Jo Stanley (32:44):
Yeah, but that’s hard for parents.
Sonny Jane Wise (32:46):
Yeah, no, it really is because we are taught that psychiatry, psychiatrists, psychologists, doctors, medical professionals, they’re the experts. But what we’re also realizing, and which I think parents may not always be introduced to unless they seek out those resources.
(33:04):
But we’re also realizing how much of psychiatry and psychology isn’t based on actual science, but on the expectation that there is a right way to function. And so I think that can be really hard when we’re taught something is the authority, but the authority of what?
Mimi Kwa (33:23):
And so obviously social media then, and you did say that that was great for you to make connections, but what I’m hearing as well in that all the work that you do, the more work that you do, the more that you’ll pop up on search engines, the more that people will find you through social media, even when they’re least expecting it, if they’re just researching a particular word or terminology around neurodivergence, then they might find you and that could actually change the trajectory of their life.
(33:53):
Do you have a sense that things happen for a reason, or that you gravitate towards somebody for a reason, or cross paths with them for a reason? I mean, you had the Tinder swipe in the right direction, didn’t you?
Jo Stanley (34:05):
Yes. What about that? I love that about dating platforms, left or right? Sliding door.
Mimi Kwa (34:11):
Yeah, sliding door.
Jo Stanley (34:11):
Literally, it’s a sliding door.
Sonny Jane Wise (34:14):
Honestly, I’m not someone who believes that everything happens for a reason, purely because then I’d have to believe that all the bad things happen for a reason. And if people are dying, or being murdered, or being abused, or being mistreated, I refuse to believe that’s for a reason.
(34:35):
So no, I do not believe everything happens for a reason. But I guess I do believe that when things happen, then we should, I guess, embrace them and accept that they happen and then figure out what we do next. It’s what we do next after something happens that matters.
Jo Stanley (34:57):
And I really love what you say there though, Mimi, is that, Sonny, you are, for many people, possibly that very thing that shifts them into a different sort of trajectory that shifts them into perhaps finding that self-acceptance that you took so long to find in yourself.
(35:15):
So have you got, it’s a really awful way of phrasing it, advice? But what would you share for people who perhaps are currently in a dark place who maybe need something that shifts them?
Sonny Jane Wise (35:28):
Oh, that’s so hard because I feel like everyone who is in a dark place, they may need to hear something different. But I guess something that may be applicable to people is just because you’re in a dark place, doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with you.
(35:44):
I think more people need to hear that there is nothing wrong with you. Even if you experience challenges and struggles, there’s nothing wrong with you. Even if you have so many needs, there’s nothing wrong with you. Even if you experience distress and you…
PART 3 OF 4 ENDS [00:36:04]
Sonny Jane Wise (36:01):
… stress and you find life overstimulating and overwhelming and you are in distress a lot of the times, it doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with you.
Mimi Kwa (36:12):
Sonny, that’s so beautiful. I could imagine you saying that to your child self. Are they the words that would’ve helped you?
Sonny Jane Wise (36:20):
Yeah. No, definitely. Probably wouldn’t have believed me, but it would’ve been nice to hear.
Mimi Kwa (36:26):
You’d be like, “I’ve come from the future. I am you in 20 years.”
Jo Stanley (36:31):
Do you know what though? What it takes is lots of people to say it and say it over and over until you do believe it.
Sonny Jane Wise (36:41):
Yeah, 100%. Yes, I agree.
Jo Stanley (36:41):
And for adults to be the advocates for the children in our lives so that they understand that. And true love and acceptance comes with that kind of language. We are here to challenge neuronormativity. How do we do that?
Sonny Jane Wise (36:55):
Oh, so much. By challenging our expectations, by challenging what we believe to be normal. By adjusting and adapting our environments, by changing how we think about things, by identifying neuronormativity in the first place and identifying how it shows up in our classrooms, in our workplaces, in our expectations and our ideals, in our understanding of success and independence. And by simply making more room for how people function, for all the different ways that people function.
Mimi Kwa (37:38):
So what is the key overarching way to do that? Because I’m really hearing you talking about how you are unlearning your own triggers that have come from the conditioning of your childhood and young adulthood, and that is an ongoing daily challenge, I would expect. So in terms of all of us unlearning what we have just assumed to be true around neurodivergency and diversity, how do we unlearn that? Is it just having an awareness and questioning everything that we thought to be true? Do you have practical ways that you’ve supported people to unlearn what they have learned?
Sonny Jane Wise (38:26):
I think there’s a couple of things, is having an open mind and being curious, being open to learning and being challenged. I think it’s very common for someone to read something that challenges you and be like, “Well, that’s not right. I’ve always done it this way,” or “That’s not right. Doing it this way is the right way.” And so get comfortable with being wrong. Question everything. I think we definitely have to question things. And then, I think we definitely need to seek out more resources about identifying and unpacking neuronormativity. We need more conversations around that.
(39:07):
So I think for those who are a part of that conversation, speak out, speak up about it more. Speak up about neuronormativity. Start identifying ways that heteronormativity shows up in your life and share it because it’s like with heteronormativity, a lot of people can now identify ways that heteronormativity shows up, but that’s only because people started identifying it, started having a conversation about it. So we definitely need to get the conversation going about neuronormativity in order for people to start decentering it.
Jo Stanley (39:47):
But those conversations need to happen in a psychologically safe environment. And I feel as though one of the absolute keys is just acceptance of difference. Wouldn’t that be just a joy if the world came from that base?
Mimi Kwa (40:03):
Absolutely. But also in terms of opening up to these conversations, it’s about accepting one’s own ignorance.
Jo Stanley (40:11):
Yes.
Mimi Kwa (40:12):
Because a lot of people are not willing to participate in the conversation because they are too scared of coming across as stupid. I mean, that is just a fact. I myself feel very unfamiliar with a lot of the terms that we are using today. I can understand the broader topic and I can intellectualize it, but do the terms roll off my tongue? No, they don’t. And so that’s something that I guess I’m self-conscious of, and really I shouldn’t be because I know that I’m in a safe space. But imagine somebody who just really does not know where to begin. What do you say to somebody like that? What is your tolerance level, Sonny, around people who really are quite ignorant?
Sonny Jane Wise (41:00):
I’m very patient with people who don’t know because at the end of the day, them not knowing isn’t a personal failing. And it’s actually quite interesting because I feel like the way people frame intelligence or think about intelligence is another example of neuronormative expectations, that being smart is good, that’s the right way to be. It shows in how we look down upon stupidity. We view ignorance and not knowing as the worst thing to be, as a personal failing, as a moral failing.
Mimi Kwa (41:35):
Yeah, because it’s a huge vulnerability in our society.
Sonny Jane Wise (41:39):
It’s okay that we don’t know things. Why are we expected to know everything?
Jo Stanley (41:42):
Well, how else are you going to learn if you don’t acknowledge that you don’t know something?
Sonny Jane Wise (41:47):
And so I think that’s where that embarrassment and that shame and vulnerability comes from with not knowing, because we’ve associated with failure, with negative things.
Mimi Kwa (41:58):
It so much comes back to shame in so many of our conversations, doesn’t it?
Sonny Jane Wise (42:04):
Yeah, and I think just with people who don’t know things, we have to approach them with patience. We really do. Because like you said, how will we know things unless we learn them and listen and have a conversation, and teach and educate?
Jo Stanley (42:21):
Sonny, your incredibly open heart and tolerance of the world that has been pretty cruel to you is very beautiful.
Sonny Jane Wise (42:30):
Thank you.
Jo Stanley (42:31):
Don’t you think, Mimi?
Mimi Kwa (42:33):
Yeah, it is because as we know all too well, not everybody lands on their feet so to speak, and not everybody goes and turns that pain into very deliberate, considered purpose. And that is what you have clearly done. And I wonder whether there was a conscious moment in that evolution of Sonny where you just realize, hang on, this is now my purpose so that nobody else has to go through what I have been through.
Sonny Jane Wise (43:09):
I think that shift was when I was, I’ve had enough pain to last me a lifetime. I think I just hated myself and was miserable enough and in pain and lonely and tired for so long that I didn’t want to continue living that way, I guess. And having a purpose, it’s almost selfish in a way, and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with being selfish. Having a purpose makes me feel better. It makes me feel like, you know what? It was all worth it, which makes me feel better about my childhood, and it gives me a sense of hope and positivity and compassion. And you know what? Sometimes it’s nice to be like, yes, I’m right. Actual right. So I’ll take what I can get, okay?
Mimi Kwa (44:12):
Oh, we love that you’ve used your story and that pain to be able to reach others and to give them the glimmer of hope that they need to be able to step through the door and make something of life like you have. We are a podcast called A to Be, and you have been extraordinary in sharing your A to Be. But what is it, how would you describe what it is to be Sonny? What is your Be?
Sonny Jane Wise (44:41):
What does it mean to be Sonny? I guess unapologetic and single-minded and passionate, and stubborn and relentless.
Jo Stanley (44:55):
That’ll do.
Jo Stanley (44:56):
Yeah.
Sonny Jane Wise (45:00):
That’ll do.
Mimi Kwa (45:00):
It’s brilliant, Sonny.
Sonny Jane Wise (45:02):
I was going to make a joke about, being Sonny is about being sunny.
Mimi Kwa (45:07):
That works too, yeah.
Jo Stanley (45:09):
You are sunny, but you don’t need to be all the time.
Sonny Jane Wise (45:12):
Thank you.
Jo Stanley (45:13):
It’s just been a delight to learn from you. The book is called We’re All Neurodiverse. It is brilliant. I think everybody should read this. It should be taken into schools and workplaces. It’s just so powerful and I learned a lot, and I will be sharing it with a lot of people. So thank you, Sonny. Congratulations on the book.
Mimi Kwa (45:32):
Thank you, Sonny. Congratulations. Thanks for joining us.
Sonny Jane Wise (45:35):
Thanks for having me.
Jo Stanley (45:39):
Thank you for listening. We love you joining us for our A to Be chats.
Mimi Kwa (45:43):
Yes, we do. Please see our show notes for our acknowledgement of country and all the people who help us put this podcast together, as well as interesting links to our guest’s work and other references we’ve mentioned.
Jo Stanley (45:54):
We’re Jo.
Mimi Kwa (45:55):
And Mimi from A to Be. Rate, follow and get in touch on our website.
Jo Stanley (46:01):
And let us know who’s A to Be you’d like to find out about.
Mimi Kwa (46:04):
We can’t wait for you to hear our next conversation.