Transcript: A to BE Episode 11

 Mimi Kwa (00:03):
People say life is a journey, not a destination. But how do you know you’re on the right path?
Jo Stanley (00:10):
Only we could see the signs when they appear.
Mimi Kwa (00:13):
Well, I’m Mimi Kwa.
Jo Stanley (00:14):
And I’m Jo Stanley.
Mimi Kwa (00:16):
And on A to BE, we speak to fascinating people about how they navigated their way to be here now having profound impact on the world.
Jo Stanley (00:26):
We hope our conversations will help you reflect on everything you’ve been through to get here, the triumphs, challenges, and bumps along the road.
Mimi Kwa (00:35):
And if you haven’t already, find your own map to what matters.
Sue Fennessey (00:41):
At the moment, the world’s created so that we are liked and we’re waiting to be liked and waiting for other people to like us. And then you have the dopamine being released because of the fact we’re being judged and, “Have I got enough likes?” I’m clawing for something that can never bring me happiness because if we wait in this world for other people to like us, well, I’d be completely.
Jo Stanley (01:09):
Imagine social media in a world where trolls don’t exist and you are encouraged not to spend hours scrolling, and you get paid to watch the ads. What is this utopia, Mimi?
Mimi Kwa (01:21):
It sounds impossible, but our guest today has created that very world and it is called WeAre8, a free social media platform that has already raised over one and a quarter million dollars for charities.
Jo Stanley (01:38):
Our guest today is the incredible Sue Fennessey, and WeAre8 is her massive passion project. She’s so amazing. She’s an Aussie woman taking on the world with this… Such Huge admiration.
Mimi Kwa (01:49):
She’s just so amazing. And yes, huge admiration for her. Sue was the founder of a media data company providing Intel to the likes of Disney and Goldman Sachs, no less. And long before that, she was a very, very young 21-year-old mover and shaker creating platforms for TV networks and negotiating major Olympic sponsorship deals.
Jo Stanley (02:10):
Now, that’s all true, but what’s important to know is that the start of this interview is a little different because I had forgotten to press record.
Mimi Kwa (02:20):
Well, I was going to say someone forgot to press record. We don’t have to put it on you.
Jo Stanley (02:24):
I have to own it. So, when we start this interview, you join us right at the moment where we’re still dealing with the horror of what could have been.
(02:38):
If you can feel my heart right now, fucking hell.
Mimi Kwa (02:42):
We’re professionals. We can do this.
Sue Fennessey (02:44):
Can I just say, showing vulnerability, doing those things makes us human and builds trust, is what we’ve discovered. And we’re not able to show up as ourselves anymore and make those mistakes and just love each other more. It’s right at the heart of Eight, weirdly enough.
Jo Stanley (03:02):
Well, I’m not editing that start out by the way. I’m keeping all of that because that’s hilarious and you’ve just given us that nugget. I will introduce you though, Sue, but we love vulnerability here and we’ll probably go back to that. But let me start the podcast now that I’ve hit record.
(03:18):
Sue, it is so lovely to speak with you. An Australian woman in the UK doing incredible things globally. I’m giggling ’cause we’ve already done this. But you’re taking on the big guys, the social media platforms who are just so dominant in the world, and you’re the only female global CEO for socials platforms. We’re here to work out how the hell you’re able to do this because I’m intimidated by the thought of it. So, how are you doing this? And at some point, we need to put this into context and understand what WeAre8 is actually.
Sue Fennessey (03:52):
Jo, I don’t often stop and think about how big they are, but I do think I am very driven by how broken they are. I look at the fact that Facebook, Meta started because guys in a dorm were judging women and ranking them, and it’s become a massive manifestation of judgment and ranking. And as a result, the entire world’s feeling insecure when they show up.
(04:24):
And so I look at that and then I look at the fact they took $120 billion in ad revenue and didn’t share that with the most important stakeholders on the platform, the creators, the publishers, the charities and the people. And so their ad model is inherently broken, the economics are broken and they keep everything, and at the same time, they’re fueling the destruction of our society. Mental health crisis, the climate crisis, they’re fueling climate misinformation. They knowingly fuel teen suicide.
(05:02):
And so I couldn’t see anyone tackling this or re-imagining it in a way that put people at the center of everything. And so we knew their vulnerability was their ad model because their ad model is actually so broken. It’s only delivering a 0.04% engagement rate. So, if we could build a better ad model that shared money with people and put money back into people’s pockets that they could pay forward to charity, then we can rebuild around that a new social home that’s full of love, doesn’t tolerate hate, and where we can come together in a much joyful, happier place. By the way, evil destroys itself. So I think Zuckerberg and Musk are going to be fighting each other literally in the ring, and we’re just going to get on with it and pull the good people together.
Jo Stanley (06:01):
You make it sound so simple, but I guess… No, but what I mean by that, if you were to stop and think about actually what you were doing, I guess you wouldn’t do it. Right?
Sue Fennessey (06:10):
I actually wake up thinking about how fucked… Am I allowed to swear on this?
Jo Stanley (06:15):
You must swear.
Sue Fennessey (06:16):
Well, clearly. I’m really driven by how fucked things are and we really are on a mission to unfuck them. And I get told every day by people in our industry that their kids are self-harming, their kids are suicidal, suffering from eating disorders, all these shocking things, on top of things like the climate crisis. We do have six years until the damage that we’ve done to our planet is irreversible. And so I can’t not do it, Jo.
(06:53):
And look, this is $43 million invested working how to do it. We worked with a team of behavioral scientists for two years actually working through, “Are people even, would they be prepared to watch an ad? Because the content piece is relatively easy, but would they be prepared to watch an ad and give two minutes of their time a day and could we leave them feeling really loved?” Because if we can crack that nut, then we can pump billions of dollars back into people and publishers and the planet. And so I don’t think I can not do it. There have been moments that I’ve actually tried. I’ve tried.
Mimi Kwa (07:38):
So how did you know that this in particular was your purpose? Or do you just have a higher purpose to somehow be of service to the people and the planet and this just popped up as a concept that you felt you could get on board with and live out your purpose?
Sue Fennessey (07:58):
It’s a beautiful question. I think our purpose chooses us, and I never get attached to that, honestly. I think we’re born into this world, we’re sort of shoved in certain directions, and then we try and make the most of it. I’ve spent 35 years in media and technology. I built a data company which became the backbone to media trading in the US. And I think, “How did I even build that?” I don’t even think the structure and the thought came into my own mind. I think it was really put there.
(08:36):
And so you think about the journey, and I think I’ve always been going in this direction. And look, social media is the medium of our time and it doesn’t serve people. And I think the next evolution of technology is where it serves us. And so I do see myself in service to people on the planet. We’re here for a very short… What’s the earth? 4.6 billion years old. We’re here for a blip. And happiness for me is doing things that can make a difference.
(09:16):
And I can’t sit by and I can’t believe we can live, and this is true of Silicon Valley, I don’t know how those guys can sit in Silicon Valley when right on their doorstep is the biggest homeless population across the US and not think, “Shit, I made $120 billion last year. I think I might try and fix that.” Or, “There’s 800 million people that can’t access fresh water, I think I might try and fix it.”
(09:46):
So I think you either think about others or you think of yourself. And the frightening part for me, is I believe 99% of people want to do something for others, do things for their families, do things for their friends. And the very frame of Instagram makes people look at themselves, feel judged, and feel insecure, because what they really want to do is give and then it starts to flow. So, I think it chooses you.
Jo Stanley (10:22):
So, do you think that the structure itself brainwashes us to be so inward-facing that we silence our urge to help others?
Sue Fennessey (10:33):
I think inherently everyone wants to help others and feel really good about it, and that’s what brings them joy. Unfortunately, I think we’ve got generations, Gen Z, Gen X, everyone, actually millennials, who are dampening that down. The very structure of the feed is built on existing platforms to keep you scrolling for four, six hours a day. Four to six hours a day is the average time people…
PART 1 OF 4 ENDS [00:11:04]
Sue Fennessey (11:03):
Six hours a day, four to six hours a day is the average time people scroll. And so that’s making us numb, and we’re not getting what we need. Silly videos. I love a silly video. I love a laugh, as we’ve discovered this morning, but also getting out and living again. As a society, we’re not talking to each other and giving. So we often say, you can still dance on TikTok, tweet on X, but change the world over here. And we just launched a celebration feature where, when you invite your friends to 8, after you pay, every time you watch an ad, money gets donated to charity and you get tiny wallet drops. And when you do that, donations also go to charity, and your friends then celebrate you, and then you can send them a little emoji and you say thank you. And it’s this beautiful flywheel. This whole idea of tiniest little things can make us feel valued. And unfortunately, I think we’re living in a world where no one’s feeling seen, heard, or valued, and that’s not a good state for us to be in.
Mimi Kwa (12:16):
So I’m just curious on that psychological, neurological level at just the base dopamine experience. Do you think, or in your studies, is it showing that the dopamine that we receive or the feel good that we get from giving is equal to the feel good that we get from people on 8 celebrating us for giving?
Sue Fennessey (12:42):
Yes, that’s exactly what we’re seeing. So what we ultimately wanted to prove is that the release, the chemicals that are released are equal to, because they did a study once and showed that if you get over 400 likes or something, it’s the same dopamine that’s released as on your wedding day. So if you think about the power and the pool of that-
Jo Stanley (13:07):
It depends on your wedding day. I mean, I have a story to tell, but now’s not the time.
Mimi Kwa (13:17):
Go on, Jo, I think it’s the perfect-
Jo Stanley (13:22):
It’s such a distraction, but the comedian in me just had to make that joke.
Sue Fennessey (13:27):
But I think we’ve got this addiction, that’s why we’re seeing people post. And then, if they don’t get enough likes in the first 30 minutes, they’ll take it down. And so at the moment, the world’s created so that we are liked, and we’re waiting to be liked and waiting for other people to like us. We’ve just created a love button, which is a little love meter where you are celebrated for the love you give. So if you are loving other people and commenting on their posts and bringing the love and giving the love, your love counter goes up. And we’re having all of these things that are relating to that. So between the love meter and the celebration feature, that absolutely releases more than the other. Well, it releases it, but it releases it in a good way and a real way. So it is fascinating. And actually, I studied the algorithms because two things are at play.
(14:28):
One is the chemicals that are being released in our brains, and the second thing is the algorithms. I studied those algorithms for years. I mean, the TikTok algorithm is built on linger time. I was speaking to one of the TV networks in Germany yesterday, and this guy told me that he installed TikTok. The third post he saw was a far right-wing extreme post. And because he was so shocked and horrified, he stayed on it because it was like watching the car crash. He was watching it, and then he was just served more and more. So when you have the algorithms that are literally feeding us the content, and then you have the dopamine being released because of the fact we’re being judged, and have I got enough likes? I’m clawing for something that can never bring me happiness.
(15:28):
Because if we wait in this world for other people to like us, well, I’d be completely fucked because many people don’t like me, and I’m now weirdly addicted to, and I know that’s sort of got a negative connotation, that word, I wake up and actually want to celebrate other people. And I’m only on 8 for eight minutes a day. We don’t want you scrolling for four to six hours, which, by the way, is three to four months of your life every year. We want you on for eight minutes. Love a few people, see your friends in a private feed, watch a couple of ads, donate to charity, feel really good, and go and run through the forest or have breakfast with your family or whatever it is. So live again.
Jo Stanley (16:23):
Well, so I mean, we want to know how you are so glorious. What happened in your life? No, but to have this perspective, I mean, Mimi, this is the whole purpose of this podcast, is to really speak with people who have a perspective of life that is about love and is about giving and generosity in abundance and all of those beautiful things. And not everyone has it, Sue. So I mean, we do need to understand, is this something that was modeled for you and your family? Did you have experiences in your life that taught you this?
Mimi Kwa (16:56):
What crack in heaven let you slip through onto earth to save us from the demons of social media?
Sue Fennessey (17:07):
Oh, my God, I love you. That nearly makes me cry. Mom and dad were beautiful. I grew up in a very, working class in North Dandenong actually, and mom and dad were, we just lived a very normal life. They were good people. Dad was a doctor. Mom was a nurse. Everyone tried to hold it together. But dad did rotary and art class, and I used to do Meals on Wheels with Mom, and I still remember the smell of going into, I’d carry the tray and go into these old, lonely people’s houses. And they loved it because they really wanted the conversation. They wanted to talk to us more than the food. But mom and dad were always doing things for the community and other people, but they didn’t see themselves as any kind of saints. It was just what you did and what everyone did. And I think that we have lost a little bit of that, and I believe it’s in inherently how people want to live.
Mimi Kwa (18:15):
So were you exposed to charity work and really giving within your community from a very young age, or as long as you can remember? Is it just something that you grew up with in your blood?
Sue Fennessey (18:28):
Yes. I think we just all look after each other. And even in my first business when I was 21, we didn’t even think about this. We just, every year we do two big charity things. We do a Christmas dinner every year for street kids and we’d get all the things donated. I remember giant turkeys and chickens from Ralph Bird from Eat More Poultry, and just we’d give them Telstra phone cards and phone little things, but it wasn’t a big thing. It wasn’t, oh, isn’t this fantastic? It was just, we all look after each other.
Mimi Kwa (19:12):
What do you think made your parents that way in the community? Was everybody like that or were they sort of extraordinary to where you grew up?
Sue Fennessey (19:21):
I think when you’re a doctor, so dad was a pathologist in a big public hospital. And when you choose to be in the public system versus the private system, because he had lots of offers to go into the private pathology and make money. And he just wouldn’t ever do it because he felt he was in service. I used to go into his laboratory, and it was amazing to me, looking down that microscope and seeing the cells, and what is inside our bodies is an entire universe. It’s amazing to me. And then we’d look at the stars, and that was a whole universe. So I think it was this really deep love of science. And I remember dad came back from America and started talking very early about AIDS and new diseases that were coming out and what they meant and what they meant for people. And this real need to come together.
(20:23):
And I remember the first microscope; he would actually literally talk to a doctor in England, or Germany or America while he was looking at the cells, and they could look at the cells at the same time, which in the late 70s was an amazing thing. I mean, there was no internet, there was nothing. And so for me, it was a real love of technology, connection, what was possible through connection. And even though, I know I’m going off piece here, but even though they were talking about cellular structure, it was connection for something else, connection for the good of a person or something else. So I think subtly all those dots were joining.
(21:13):
And then Mom’s a nurse. And I think nurses, teachers, critical parts of our society are under pressure. I mean, I was hearing the other day that there’s a lot of hospital workers once a week going to food banks in the UK. And the reality is the government doesn’t have enough money because they don’t charge the tech companies enough tax. And the tech companies manage to avoid it in a global world. And so they don’t have enough money. Teachers are under pressure, nurses are under pressure. Everyone’s underpaid. And in fact, we share 60 cents in the dollar actually. So 50% goes to people’s pockets, 5% to creators and publishers, and 5% to a charity, and one of those to the planet and carbon projects. And we thought-
(22:03):
imagine taking 1% and putting it into a nurses’ fund, and 1% and putting it into a teachers’ fund, which is what we’re going to do. If we think about the money Google and Facebook make, $300 billion a year, and pump it back into our society. And all people have to do is watch two minutes of ads a day, and give a bit of love. That’s the sort of dots.
PART 2 OF 4 ENDS [00:22:04]
Jo Stanley (22:29):
It is so, so brilliant, Sue. But you’re right. I’m going off on my socialist rant here, but I cannot understand how the billions of dollars that tech companies just hoard, literally hoard. It is unconscionable. It makes me rageful.
Sue Fennessey (22:50):
Yeah. What the fuck do they do with that money anyway? I’d really like to know. Who needs that? What are they doing?
Jo Stanley (22:58):
What do they do with it?
Sue Fennessey (22:59):
I think we’re going to look back, Jo, in 12 months, 18 months, and say, “Oh my God, what were we doing?” Because we just did the math. Our initial goal is to get just 1% of our human population. So there’s eight billion people on the planet. 1%, 80 million people. When 80 million people watch just two minutes of ads a day, that is $1.3 billion a month back into people’s pockets. And if everyone paid that forward, 54% of people pay it forward now, but if everyone paid that forward, with just 1% of the population, we’d be pumping $1.3 billion back into the economy, and back into things that matter every month.
Mimi Kwa (23:48):
Sue, what you’re doing is so mind-blowingly incredible, and hearing about your mom and dad and who they are and the impression that they have made on you as a person is so fascinating to me. Did you have siblings? Was there somebody else in your life that really shaped this passionate person that we’re talking to today?
Sue Fennessey (24:14):
Yeah, so I have an older sister. Truthfully, I don’t think it’s always easy living with someone who is obsessive. And I’m talking about me here, not my sister. I’m highly sensitive. So I was trying to save a sloth when we were in Germany, because its cage was too small. My kids say, “Oh my God, mom.” I’ve got three boys, three beautiful, loving boys. But they say, “Oh my God, mom, you are on the spectrum.” By the way, I think every human is on the spectrum. We’re all on one big, gigantic spectrum. So I think it all shapes you. I think even Megan Wicksy, who bashed me up in grade four, I couldn’t understand why she was bashing me up. I was having a conversation with a teacher about some random architecture or something. And then I realized you don’t talk about shit like that, actually. But I couldn’t understand why.
(25:20):
So I think why she was bashing me up, and then actually I realized she actually saved my life. Because I think one of the teachers was a bit dodgy, and I’d left the school. But I think it all shapes us. I think we are born a certain way into a family dynamic. Mum used to do night duty, and she used to me on the… She was so elegant, that she had beautiful red lipstick. And she’d kiss me on the stomach, and then go off to do night, Judy and say, “When you’d wake up in the morning, you are going to look there, and I’m going to be back.” And I often thought, “God, how did she cope?” Getting home, she’d come in, wake me up, give me a hug, make us breakfast. I mean, yeah, it’s really beautiful. That’s why nurses and teachers, they give love. It’s dedication, because certainly not money for them.
Jo Stanley (26:20):
What a beautiful gift she gave you. I mean, I have to say, I’ve never met a child of a nurse that I didn’t love. I think nurses are incredible people. And also Megan Wicksy, let’s find her.
Sue Fennessey (26:37):
Can we find Megan Wicksy? Because I’ve got to tell you, I actually love her now. Because I think what that taught me, we all need to learn to stand up to bullies. I mean, I think one of the things, people often say to me, why didn’t you make this a nonprofit? And firstly, you couldn’t invest $43 million in technology, because on one side we’ve built the experience for people, but we’ve had to build an entire ad buying engine like Facebook Ads Manager on the other side, and then zero tolerance of hate. We’ve had to build this whole AI infrastructure and everything. You can’t do it as a nonprofit. We’re a B Corp. So we’re good for people, good for the planet. Luckily all the investors as well.
(27:26):
And I’ve put everything on the line to invest 12 and a half million myself. All the money I’ve made, everything I’ve done has all been plowed back in, because I think you work out how little you need to actually live, and what is enough. This whole idea of what is enough? And I think I know my enough. I know how I can live. As long as I cook. So when mom was working, I learned to cook dinner. I used to cook dinner a lot when I was growing up from a young age. And I love it. As long as I’ve got a kitchen, can put food on the table, I actually like it when I’m in a smaller house. So I think for me, if I didn’t put everything on the line, I haven’t done my best.
Mimi Kwa (28:15):
So just on that note of cooking dinner late, and cooking a lot, and you loving cooking. Some people would look back on their childhoods and say, “I was cooking dinner for myself from a really young age, because I was neglected, because my mom was out working nights.” You don’t see it like that. You are so glass half full. And as you put it yourself, you’re so sort of obsessive about what you are passionate about. It’s just amazing. It’s wonderful.
Sue Fennessey (28:44):
Oh, thanks, Mimi. I used to pretend I had a cooking show, actually. God, I wish we had the internet back then. I wish we had eight back then. So I would pretend I have a cooking show. I used to chop everything up in the little bowls, and then just talk to an imaginary audience that didn’t exist, and cook. And then I used to pretend there was this chute, where you could put all the leftover food into this chute, and it would end up in Africa, or whatever. Because seeing dad on them, I’ve never joined that dot actually. On the microscope, imagine if we could actually put food down a chute, because food waste, by the way, is the most damaging to our planet. So if we can have less food waste, share more, then we’re in good shape. So I don’t know, I love food. I love tastes, I love food.
(29:39):
And for me, my chief of staff said the other day, “That’s your love language, actually cooking for people.” Because it’s also a long journey building this, working out how to do it, working out all the little pieces of it, making it really easy for people. It’s hard. And so cooking a meal is very immediate for me. So no matter what day I’ve had, no matter what shit I’ve been served up, I can cook a meal and put it on the table, and all sit down and eat it.
Jo Stanley (30:13):
It’s amazing. I mean, you’re a very good orator, by the way. I really enjoy the way you just drop in stories.
Sue Fennessey (30:19):
Really?
Jo Stanley (30:19):
Which is really fun, because, well, Mimi and I are storytellers, and I really love a good story. So this is joyous for me.
Sue Fennessey (30:28):
Can we flip this now? Can I interview both of you?
Mimi Kwa (30:31):
You’ll never get on with your day if you start us talking.
Jo Stanley (30:37):
Well, you’re not allowed. But at some point we will have a conversation, Sue, because I’m building a startup.
Sue Fennessey (30:43):
Congrats.
Jo Stanley (30:43):
And this is literally the nourishment I needed to keep going. And I think we’re going to get onto now some really key parts of what you’re doing. One is, I read that you said you believe that WeAre8 could only be created by a woman. And for me, I’m making Broad Radio. It’s radio for women by women, because women’s voices are just, they’re just not heard in the media. So I’m interested to know why you think women, and what impact women have had on you such that you believe our leadership is very different? Was there a woman who mentored you, who showed you when you were younger, what your potential was?
Sue Fennessey (31:23):
I don’t want to name one Jo, because there are so many amazing women that have pulled me up, and there are so many amazing men. I remember my first job, one of my first jobs, my first job was Just Jeans in Parkmore, Keysborough. And it was a great woman who ran the store there, Carol, forgotten her last name. She was fantastic, and she was so supportive of the team. And then I went to Brashs superstore.
Jo Stanley (31:55):
Oh my God, that was my dream job.
Sue Fennessey (31:58):
Was it?
Jo Stanley (31:58):
Brashs was my dream job. In the eighties, oh, yeah.
Sue Fennessey (32:01):
But the interesting thing in Clayton, it was a superstore, and the women were all on the record bar. And the men were able to sell stereos and microwaves and everything. And the men got commission. So we’d work the same hours. Women didn’t get commission, and men did. And I was really outraged at that. So I went and spoke to the manager, spoke to the assistant manager. And they said, “But women can’t carry the boxes to the cars.” And I said, “But I can. And I’ll sign something to say.” And I said, “By the way, there’s people that wheel it out to the cars. So this is redundant. This is a redundant issue. Please let me do it.” And on that first Saturday that I was able to go on the floor, because then we led a rebellion, then all the women were on the floor, and it was totally fucking fantastic. But I remember that first Saturday, I did my sales, but then the assistant manager, who was a guy, gave me his sales.
PART 3 OF 4 ENDS [00:33:04]
Sue Fennessey (33:03):
… assistant manager, who was a guy, gave me his sales. This is why we need great men too. So, I was the top salesperson for the thing, and it pushed this change through. But that was also because of a good man. So, we need constructs and we need big constructs, and we need media for women, built by women. We need technology built by women, because when women build it, they have a much… Sorry about the dog in the background. We have a much more open mindset. We just do things in a different way.
Mimi Kwa (33:39):
Sue, from staging your own rebellion in your job early on, you are staging a far bigger rebellion nowadays. Now, this is a great segue into our little segment, which is an origin story that I’m going to bring to you both now, Jo and Sue. I was thinking about the number eight because of course WeAre8, and how we all know that it’s a lucky number, particularly in Asian culture. So, I started researching origin stories to do with luck and good fortune. I ended up going down this rabbit hole, and I ended up with the Incas and the Egyptians who had looked to crystals for mystical power, and luck, and good fortune to increase their own good fortune. But, none had actually used a crystal in quite the same way as a bit later on in the Middle Ages when King Arthur needed a quick reading and a glimpse at the future. The mythical Merlin reached for his polished crystal ball in the hopes of divining guidance to good luck.
(34:49):
So, this period led to a very long history of crystal ball gazing in all sorts of ways and forms that a lot of us are familiar with. In the 1940s, so fast-forward to the 1940s, a woman named Mary Carter was earning a living as a clairvoyant in Cincinnati, and she came up with an object that was inspired by the guiding qualities of the crystal ball-
Jo Stanley (35:16):
I got it.
Mimi Kwa (35:16):
… That she did… No, stop, you are not allowed to guess.
Jo Stanley (35:20):
I got it.
Mimi Kwa (35:21):
You are not allowed to guess. That she used with her clients a container that held a small chalk slate, and that she would shake that container and then open it up to reveal the answer to that client’s question written on the slate. Now, Mary’s son, Albert… Stop it, Jo, I know that you know. Mary’s son, Albert, saw commercial opportunity, and he invented a cylinder filled with molasses and two dice that had answers written on each face, and both ends of the cylinders were transparent. When you shook it and you asked a question, the so-called answer would drift up to the top revealing what your fate was going to be. That was called the Syco-Seer. Now, that product was a big flop. But, then along came a guy called Abe and he picked up the patent and encased the device in its obvious original fortune-telling inspiration, something that looked a little bit like a crystal ball. But, that was a flop, so enter Chicago’s Brunswick Billiards company who put their take on the crystal ball and created the Magic 8-Ball.
Jo Stanley (36:29):
8-Ball. I love it.
Mimi Kwa (36:29):
The 8-Ball for luck and good fortune to guide you to your very best future. That is selling a million Magic balls, sorry, every year. It’s been inducted into the American Toy Hall of Fame. So, I was thinking lucky number eight and the crystal ball unite, and I’m hoping, Sue, that the number eight holds great good fortune for you and all of the causes that WeAre8 are channeling for.
Jo Stanley (37:03):
Oh my God. Firstly, I just have to say Mimi, I have for a long time been obsessed with the Magic 8-Ball for-
Mimi Kwa (37:10):
Oh, do you have one?
Jo Stanley (37:12):
Oh my God. I did breakfast radio for a long time, Sue, and it became for about a year, it was my favorite thing to go, what? We have to ask the Magic 8-Ball. Always, it never failed to give me a laugh because you’d ask something then and I’d say, “It is so.” And I go, “Oh, yes.”
Mimi Kwa (37:31):
That’s fantastic. Oh my gosh, I had never heard of the Magic 8-Ball until I just-
Jo Stanley (37:38):
Are you joking?
Mimi Kwa (37:38):
I’m not joking. Until I just went down that rabbit hole of searching for something to do with the number eight that meant good fortune. So Sue, did you know that it was the Magic 8-Ball?
Sue Fennessey (37:47):
I did. By the way, I just love that story so much, but I love that link back to crystals and Ancient Egypt and that evolution, which is so beautiful. But we should be giving Magic 8-Balls, we should be creating yellow Magic 8-Balls.
Mimi Kwa (38:05):
There is a commercial opportunity in there somewhere.
Jo Stanley (38:09):
So Sue, the question though is, to me, if you were to ask the Magic 8-Ball your future, you bring so much research, you’re not really leaving anything to chance. But what do you foresee, what would you want to see in a crystal ball for yourself?
Sue Fennessey (38:27):
A billion people spending eight minutes a day on 8 will solve the world’s biggest problems. I see it, I feel it. We get to 80 million, just 1%. Everyone then invites two friends, then we’re 240 million. We can actually solve the biggest problems in the world with 240 million people. That’s exciting. Getting to 80 million and then getting to 240 million. Then it’s let’s do this, how fun. Then it starts to get really exciting. Look, I feel to have 1 billion people inspiring each other every day and finding their own light and realizing that they are seen and heard and valued, that’s happy.
Jo Stanley (39:20):
That is my favorite part of 8 where you say that it’s about inspiring people to own their voices and be rewarded for who they are. That’s what everyone on the planet yearns for, don’t they, really? To be seen.
Sue Fennessey (39:34):
Right. To be seen and to be heard. I think because they’re fueling hate actually on Twitter and other things. Everyone’s feeling really shit as a result. There are bits of love that are like a tease that we can get addicted to for a minute, but then we fear we live in fear because we know any second now, I could have someone, like happened on Rio Ferdinand tweeted about me, and then someone said, “@suefennessy Go and die.” So yeah, you say you know really good things, but then you’re on edge because you’re thinking, God, am I going to get punched in the face by Megan Wicksy?
Mimi Kwa (40:18):
Who we love, by the way, who we love now.
Sue Fennessey (40:24):
I love Megan Wicksy. I really do.
Mimi Kwa (40:26):
Shout out to Megan.
Sue Fennessey (40:28):
I love both of you. Can I say you have made my morning so happy. You’ve made me miss Australia actually a lot. You’ve made me miss my mom and dad, thinking about them and talking about them. I’m going to call them quickly and tell them how much I love them and forgive me for talking about you.
Mimi Kwa (40:49):
Oh, we have just loved having you on the show. Before we let you go, we have to ask the burning question. What, Sue Fennessy, is your be?
Sue Fennessey (41:03):
Be you, be yourself. You’re doing the world disservice if you’re not, so be yourself.
Jo Stanley (41:10):
It’s very beautiful. I have to say I’ve never met anyone so distinctly themselves, almost ever, I think, as you Sue.
Sue Fennessey (41:21):
That’s a frightening thought, Jo, isn’t it?
Jo Stanley (41:23):
Not at all. It’s glorious.
Sue Fennessey (41:29):
I love both of you.
Mimi Kwa (41:32):
Not to exclude myself, but I can see you two are going to become very good friends. I just know it.
Jo Stanley (41:38):
Mate. I’ve just booked a ticket to London.
Sue Fennessey (41:41):
Jo, Mimi, both of you are welcome to come and stay in my house anytime.
Mimi Kwa (41:48):
Oh, thank you.
Sue Fennessey (41:49):
Truly. I mean that. I never say that.
Jo Stanley (41:50):
You never say that. I hate people.
Mimi Kwa (41:55):
Yeah, you’re like, I’ve got three friends.
Sue Fennessey (41:59):
Seriously, I could talk to both of you all day.
Mimi Kwa (42:02):
I know. But you have a day to have, and it’s Friday night here, so we have wine to drink. It’s so lovely to have met you Sue. We love you.
Sue Fennessey (42:12):
It’s been gorgeous. Lots of love. I have loved this. Thank you both.
Mimi Kwa (42:16):
Love you, love you, love you.
Jo Stanley (42:19):
Thank you for listening. We love you joining us for our A to Be chats.
Mimi Kwa (42:23):
Yes, we do. Please see our show notes for our acknowledgement of country and all the people who help us put this podcast together, as well as interesting links to our guest’s work and other references we’ve mentioned
Jo Stanley (42:35):
Such as your frequently unverified quotes.
Mimi Kwa (42:37):
Yes, I may still need to check a few of those. Thank you.
Jo Stanley (42:42):
We’re Jo…
Mimi Kwa (42:43):
And Mimi from A to Be. Rate Follow and get in touch on our website.
Jo Stanley (42:48):
Let us know who’s A to Be you’d like to find out about.
Mimi Kwa (42:51):
We can’t wait for you to hear our next conversation.